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Dusk
Snake Mite
Ireland
19 Posts |
 Posted - 29/04/2011 : 01:46:28
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Ok, first of all, I'm new here, and also new to keeping snakes. I don't want to annoy anyone so bear with me please.
I work for an animal rescue centre and usually I foster/adopt cats/dogs (mainly cats), I also work in the centre looking after the animals when I have time off from studying. This is how I got to foster a beautiful corn snake, I also have a crow too lol! I have never had to care for a snake before, and I would never have chosen to care for one. The reason I wouldn't have intentionally bought a snake as a pet is because I really don't think they are meant to kept as pets! This is where the controversy comes in... Why should these curious little guys be kept captive as pets? Please keep in mind that I'm just asking, I'm not condemning anyone at all. I know that most snake owners that I have talked to have a huge wealth of knowledge about their snakes and look after them brilliantly.
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a33272
our battery charger
United Kingdom
3063 Posts |
Posted - 29/04/2011 : 02:03:20
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| the same could be said about most pets though, u said yourself you have a crow, why are you keeping that as a pet id say thats not ment to be kept as a pet but you do it by choice for what ever reason you do, just like any bird of pray thats kept. most reptiles over here are breed as pets. but is that the same for birds/birds or pray etc |
    
0.1.0 creamsicle corn-Marmalade
1.0.0 jungle carpet python-Bumble
1.0.0 corn Casper
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Dusk
Snake Mite
Ireland
19 Posts |
Posted - 29/04/2011 : 02:16:16
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I didn't intentionally end up with a crow  He was a rescue animal, the same as most of the animals I have here. I found him on the side of the road, his wing was broken beyond repair and when I brought him to the vet it was a choice of either putting him to sleep, or keeping him for the rest of his life. I decided to keep him and give him the best chance I could. I would never have intentionally taken a wild animal as a pet, and I'm sure if the crow had a choice he would have chosen not to end up in a house full of cats  I understand that the snakes that are kept as pets are very well looked after, and the people who care for them are absolutely dedicated to their pets. I'm just curious as to why they would keep them rather then see them where they should naturally be. As I said, it's a bit of an argumentative subject, but I'm just curious. |
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Kehhlyr
ǝʞɐɔ sǝʌoן
United Kingdom
8173 Posts |
Posted - 29/04/2011 : 02:57:40
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Think there was some paper a while back that also stated that if it wasn't for the captive keeping of cornsnakes they would be endangered.
So from keeping point of view it has worked out well for the survival of a species.
However I do also understand what you say about why, but my response is similar. In that case, why any other animals?? (dogs etc)
If you went to a world where more people kept snakes than dogs, they would probably see it the other way round, why do we keeps dogs??
Is a good topic actually, could be opinionated as well from many. I like this and actually look forward to it progressing.
My thought though on many animals is that if they cannot produce food or be food, then why keep them. I am a bit weird like that though.
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-=Kehhlyr - The Resident Loon
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Dusk
Snake Mite
Ireland
19 Posts |
Posted - 29/04/2011 : 03:09:26
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From what I've read Corn Snakes are not endangered. I could be wrong though. Dogs and cats have fared well from being domesticated. They chose to stick around because it makes their living easier  If they had a choice they could run away and still fare for themselves to a certain extent. Snakes though, that are native to another country have little or no chance of surviving if they are left to decide their own fate!
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animalcrazy
Hatchling
United Kingdom
327 Posts |
Posted - 29/04/2011 : 08:21:12
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An interesting debate. I had always wondered about keeping reptiles in small set ups till I adopted Colin from my friend and having to do the research for him and finding that snakes are quite shy animals and like to hide etc. So smaller set ups were not inappropriate.
All my animals are rescues. I also rescue and fostered greyhounds for many years Dogs gets out three or more times a day on walks and for runs and get to explore so get more freedom and have been domesticated for 1000s of years and as above they are rescues so needed help. I did wonder if it was very fair on retiles to be kept in samll enclosures the same for birds etc. Had to think hard about this before I took on Colin.
However, I 'm a strict vegetarian but feed my snake and dogs meat in various forms, so sometimes I think principles/morals do change with information and experience. I am looking to get another corn snake but for the reason some one mentioned on another forum so many snakes are up for sale I want to go to a rescue, I love helping animals. If any one hears of one in the North let me know :)
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Newbie
Yearling
950 Posts |
Posted - 29/04/2011 : 09:00:43
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Interesting debate and something a relative actually raised with me recently!
My response was that although pets like dogs and cats traditionally often chose to remain near humans for ease of living, many conventional pets don't. The 1st pet rabbit will have been wild and I doubt it was happy at being put in a pen, mice, gerbils, budgies, all the same, but with handling comes trust and I'd like to think even an animal that can survive unaided in the wild, might have a safer and just as fulfiling life with a human companion. Having these creatures also helps them become ambassadors for their kind, teaching people snakes aren't to be scared of. I know not all will agree with this but thats the nature of a debate |
1.0.0 Carolina Motley Cornsnake - Vin, 0.1.0 Brazilian Rainbow Boa - Rio, 0.1.0 IJJ Carpet Python - Luna, 0.1.0 Dwarf Sunfire Reticulated Python - Helia, 1.0.0 Royal Python - Jasper, 0.1.0 Spaniel - Jess; RIP Gypsy - a beautiful girl through and through, 0.1.0 Rabbit - Binky, RIP Indy, Jan 2010 - Aug 2011, and Ace, Jan 2009 - Aug 2011 |
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mikeyd_26
Yearling
United Kingdom
716 Posts |
Posted - 29/04/2011 : 09:26:38
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| i agree that this cud be said about any pet, but heres 1 4 u! Cornsnakes live longer in captivity due 2 a healthy diet and reduced stress enviroment if kept correctly. So wud this not mean they had a better life in captivity than in the wild? |
   
0.1.0 amel - TaLuLa
0.1.0 anery motley het amel, hypo - Bo
1.0.0 vanishing stripe unknown - Marley
1.0.0 hogg island boa - Iggy
0.1.0 hogg island boa - Luna
0.1.0 royal python - Buttons!
1.0.0 royal python 66% het albino - Steve
0.1.0 leopard gecko - Sheila
millions of beardies! |
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Mort13
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
5599 Posts |
Posted - 29/04/2011 : 09:46:46
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Its a good subject. I've never had anyone have an issue with me owning snakes,but I've had a few comments over the fact I have a cockatiel in regards to the whole bird in a cage thing!
Personally,I think the question could be applied to ANY animal. Lets face it,none of them were meant to be housed in cages,vivs,tanks,kennels etc. Dogs for example,would be in a pack in the wild,roaming large distances and hunting for food. Us humans have these animals for mainly selfish reasons at the end of the day.
The flip side of this though is that the more animals kept in captivity,the more we learn about them and this can be of benefit to their wild counterparts. Knowledge in a lot of cases replaces fear too and if that enables animals to be respected instead of feared it can only be a good thing.
Of course this only applies to the people that look after their animals in the right way. |
      
3.1.0 Corn snakes, 1.0.0 T-Albino Cape House Snake, 0.1.0 Western Hognose,
1.0.0 MBK, 0.1.0 Childrens Python, 1.0.0 Nicaraguan Dwarf Boas
0.0.1 Occelated Skink, 1.0.0 Leopard Gecko, 1.0.3 Tarantulas, 0.0.2 Damon diadema
1.0.0 C0ckatiel,
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Edited by - Kehhlyr on 29/04/2011 12:33:41 |
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Sta~ple
qeeun speler
United Kingdom
6129 Posts |
Posted - 29/04/2011 : 12:33:44
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Jealous you have a crow! I'd love one or a Raven didn't know you could actually have them as pets though?
Why not have snakes as pets, I mean cats and dogs are pets I don't see what's so different apart from the have no fur lol. And no animal, is treuely domesticated. All can attack and have the poetenial not to fair well as pets. As Mort said, the question can be applied to any animal. Quite a few snakes and lizards would be endangered if they werenot pets, I am sure it is a species of Geko that have beome extenitct in the wild yet they number high ion the pet trade because of captive breeding.
In my opnion, corns and other stater snakes far much better pets than a cat or dog. They are cheap to keep once set 7-up, have less health problems. Also, if a corn bites, it doens't hurt, a dog bite can kill. |
  
A very special super, duper thanks for K :3 |
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lotabob
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
4334 Posts |
Posted - 29/04/2011 : 13:56:16
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| I've just recently had this discussion with my mum, she keeps pets but says reptiles shouldn't be. I suppose officially no animals should be kept as pets, we humans do consider oursleves top dog when it comes to the animal kingdom and we are the only species that keep other animals for our own personal reasons. But like K said some animals would be exstinct if its wasn't for human intervention and then its a case of freedom at what cost, Suppose my snakes weren't captive bred exclusively for the pet trade (one is a Hogg Island Boa supposed exstinct in the wild) for a second and they were free in their native environment, would their freedom be of any value to them or is their health and regular food and safety more important to them. I know I provide them with the VERY best of environments, safe food, protection, and the best vetinary care available if required |
Anery Corn snake SPOT. Royal Python, DUKE. Hogg Island Boa, SANKE. Albino House Snake, HAL.
Harlequin Crested Gecko HARLEY
Albino Horned Frog WAKA
Chilean Rose Tarantula TRIXIE. Brazilian Salmon Pink Bird-eating Tarantula SAM. Orange Baboon Tarantula BORIS.
Giant Asian Forest Scorpion, SALLY.
Giant African Land Snails, SHELDON & MICHELLE.
Budwing Mantis, MAIA
Dubia Roach Colony. Silkworm Colony. Mealworm Colony. Waxworm Colony. Fruit Beetle Colony.
MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL http://www.youtube.com/user/alocheeky |
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rubberbiscuit
Snake Mite
37 Posts |
Posted - 30/04/2011 : 01:10:11
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I dont think there is anything wrong with keeping reptiles. In fact it kinda makes more sense then some of the other animals we keep as pets!! I mean dont most reptiles just want regular food, a safe home and somewhere to bask??
Unlike rabbits or rats which seem to need alot of stimulation, playtimes, more varied diets, sometimes grooming, etc. Snakes have quite low requirements to feel happy and content compared to a dog or cat as well.
Although I dont get why people keep DWA animals, and am def againest wild caught pets. If you cant breed them in captivity then you probably shouldnt have them.. |
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centricmalteser2
Banned
United Kingdom
37 Posts |
Posted - 30/04/2011 : 02:48:33
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I shouldn't be posting at the min but I just needed to speak on this matter
You say you shouldn't keep snakes as pets,
And you say you work for an animal rescue centre,
You also said you keeping a crow for rest of it's life or it be put down due to it's injury.
Then isn't the kindest and most natural thing to put it down, instead of doing the most UN-natural thing and that is keeping it as a pet.
Afterall, had the crow fallen in a middle of a forest and no one knew about it, it either heal itself, or it would adapt, or die naturally.
You also say
"and I'm sure if the crow had a choice he would have chosen not to end up in a house full of cats "
so effectively if he chose not to end up in your house, then he would have chose to adapt if left in the wild or, die. Unfortunately nature is harsh and upsetting as well as beautiful.
You don't know for sure that your crow is happy living captive.
You said dogs are domesticated enough and happy to be that way, well I know that crows are NOT domesticated even though some keep them as pets, and therefore are not happy not being able to do their own thing.
In regards to being endangered, what was meant was, if we did NOT breed them, THEN they would be endangered,
but since we are breeding them, the numbers are high and so will not be endangered.
We could argue this about the red squirrel, if in Isle Of Man these were not kept in aviaries to be bred, then these would certainly be non existent as they are currently endagerd due to the grey squirrel
the definition of pet - "an animal which is kept as a companion and treated kindly"
surely that means all rescue centres, all special breeding centres for endagerd animals are keeping them as "pets" based on that definition.
Who is to say corn snakes are not happy being looked after. You said "dogs have fare welled in being domesticated, and they chose to stick around because it makes their living easier"
Snakes are actually more time than dogs, and cats and therefore could be classed as more domesticated, because when well looked after and handled properly and well they very rarely bite,
and then if you annoy them they hiss and rattle their tail
dogs they just go for you without warning.
In fact the above could be argued, because how many people get injured by a PET DOG, compared to pet snakes,
how many people in public get bit by a dog on a lead compared to a snake
Also if it werent for snake keeping we wouldnt have anti-venom to save lives of those bit in the wild by posinous snakes.
And I agree, we could argue that any animal regardless of background, injury, specie should not be kept as pets.
I once found a large bird that looked similar to a pelican, near a lake in Peterborough, and it had both legs broken in opposite directions at the top,
I didn't leave it, I took it to a vet, and it was decided that either it could be fixed with a limp and live in someones garden or farm, or be put down,
and I took the heavy heart of agreeing to put it down, simply because it would have not been happy captive, and also meant it was in no pain.
It is an interesting debate, and a very good one at that, but the question could be asked
why keep any animal as a pet? not just snakes
quote:
Originally posted by Dusk
Ok, first of all, I'm new here, and also new to keeping snakes. I don't want to annoy anyone so bear with me please.
I work for an animal rescue centre and usually I foster/adopt cats/dogs (mainly cats), I also work in the centre looking after the animals when I have time off from studying. This is how I got to foster a beautiful corn snake, I also have a crow too lol! I have never had to care for a snake before, and I would never have chosen to care for one. The reason I wouldn't have intentionally bought a snake as a pet is because I really don't think they are meant to kept as pets! This is where the controversy comes in... Why should these curious little guys be kept captive as pets? Please keep in mind that I'm just asking, I'm not condemning anyone at all. I know that most snake owners that I have talked to have a huge wealth of knowledge about their snakes and look after them brilliantly.
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eeji
The Morph Master
United Kingdom
4335 Posts |
Posted - 30/04/2011 : 13:42:41
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the IUCN list cornsnakes as "status: least concern - population trend: stable" so anyone using the 'endangered' argument for corns cannot do so. In fact, anyone using that argument in this country for exotics really can't because they are doing nothing at all for wild populations which is where it really matters.
I think people keep animals in captivity for their own curiosity and also because we can. Its been done since the beginning of human history so it seems a 'natural' thing to do to us even if it isn't.
My own reasons for keeping captive snakes are purely selfish - I enjoy them. Watching them, breeding them, looking after them and everything else that goes with them. |
Forum - Guide to Cornsnake Morphs - Punnett Square Calculator - Breeder Directory
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SexyBear77
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
3796 Posts |
Posted - 30/04/2011 : 15:18:58
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Firstly, I agree with Centric that IMO keeping that wild crow as a pet was not the kindest thing to do for that animal. It was a truly wild animal now being kept captive.
Secondly, most, if not all cornsnakes currently kept as pets in the UK were bred in captivity, therefore they do not naturally belong in the wild.
Thirdly, the range of Morphs that people keep would lead to a large decease in fitness should they be released to the wild. Predators would be able to spot them a mile off.
Fourthly, my snakes are healthy, safe, well fed, have clean drinking water 24/7, veterinary treatment as and when needed, and seem content (if not happy) with their lot.
So, I have a question for you? Why *shouldn't* we keep them as pets? |
9.11 Cornsnakes
1.1 Hogg island boas
1.0 Dwarf Burmese python
Location: Watford
Website- http://rassnakes.yolasite.com/ |
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Kehhlyr
ǝʞɐɔ sǝʌoן
United Kingdom
8173 Posts |
Posted - 30/04/2011 : 17:11:53
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I have a cat that I'm sure sees me as a pet.
I'm happy and content as well. |
-=Kehhlyr - The Resident Loon
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Sta~ple
qeeun speler
United Kingdom
6129 Posts |
Posted - 30/04/2011 : 17:18:34
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quote:
Originally posted by SexyBear77
Fourthly, my snakes are healthy, safe, well fed, have clean drinking water 24/7, veterinary treatment as and when needed, and seem content (if not happy) with their lot.
I have to agree. With me m snakes seems to be better off living with me than in the wild, even if I do pop my big fat ugly head in their vivs to check on them lol.
quote:
Originally posted by Kehhlyr
I have a cat that I'm sure sees me as a pet.
I'm happy and content as well.
Do you get cheesy nibblets and belly rubs :p
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A very special super, duper thanks for K :3 |
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Dusk
Snake Mite
Ireland
19 Posts |
Posted - 30/04/2011 : 17:32:58
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SexyBear77 My answer to your question is that once pets are well looked after, and seem happy in their environment then there is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't keep them. I was simply curious as to what reasons people had for choosing to keep them. My own personal opinion was that they should never have been domesticated in the first place. Now, I know that people that keep snakes are in no way cruel to their animals so I just want to point out that this is not what I meant. Now that they are domesticated and being well looked after, of course they should never be re-released into the wild! I know someone who released two pet Degus, who are native to Chile, into the wild a few weeks ago, they did it purely because they didn't want to look after them anymore, and also didn't want to bother going to the trouble of getting them re-homed. I was absolutely disgusted that anyone could be so selfish and irresponsible, and as I had offered to help him rehome them it made me even more angry. No doubt the animals won't survive.
Sta~ple, It is illegal in some countries to keep crows and ravens as pets. I kow it's illegal here to keep foxes as pets.
centricmalteser2, you're right I don't know if they crow (Raisu is his name) is happy, I wish I did know, my heart breaks for him sometimes, but I suppose this is something that I can never find out. As to your statement about more people being bitten by dogs in public than by snakes, well I think that this is obviously going to be the case due to the fact that snakes are very rarely seen in public places, and a lot of dogs should not be in public. My daughter was bitten by a German Shepard a few years ago, and he should definitely not have been out in the public, his owner breeds them as guard dogs and should have more control over them if that is what he chooses to do. I'm think the breeding of dogs is a another very controversial subject too. You ask why keep any animal as a pet. Well dogs and cats became domesticated by choosing to live near humans as this was of benefit to them and meant they didn't have to hunt as much, so this was their own choice. As to keeping other pets, I agree with what someone else said on this thread, it has a lot got to do with curiosity, interest in the animal and a little bit of being selfish too I think most animals if they are looked after well will enjoy their life as someone's pet.
As for the crow... I mentioned already that I would never choose to own a wild animals as a pet, and I suppose I contradicted myself by saying that I did in fact choose to keep him and not get him put down. So I just want to explain a little more. When I found him, his wing was broken beyond repair, BUT at the time we didn't realise that it was not fixable. The vet that we took him to said that it might take 6 months to heal but that he should be able to fly after this time. He gave me the choice of keeping him or getting him put down. I choose to keep him with a view to releasing him after his wing healed. Unfortunately it didn't heal and he's been with us now for 3 and a half years. After keeping him for so long, I wouldn't have the heart to take him to the vet and get him put down. The vet that I brought him to also told me that he himself had also found a crow with a broken wing when he was younger, he said that the crow healed but he would never fly away, he stayed around the house and even followed them when they went out Crows and ravens can become very domesticated if they are rescued as young birds, they are incredibly clever creatures.
Thanks for all the feedback, and it's nice to meet everyone
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lotabob
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
4334 Posts |
Posted - 30/04/2011 : 17:51:11
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| I think your crow whether wild or not is far better been looked after and alive than injured and left to die or be killed or put to sleep. Your braver than me though, those crows have some serious weaponry attached to the front of their face, I see them a lot coming down and raiding the bins in the bin store at work, they are MASSIVE. |
Anery Corn snake SPOT. Royal Python, DUKE. Hogg Island Boa, SANKE. Albino House Snake, HAL.
Harlequin Crested Gecko HARLEY
Albino Horned Frog WAKA
Chilean Rose Tarantula TRIXIE. Brazilian Salmon Pink Bird-eating Tarantula SAM. Orange Baboon Tarantula BORIS.
Giant Asian Forest Scorpion, SALLY.
Giant African Land Snails, SHELDON & MICHELLE.
Budwing Mantis, MAIA
Dubia Roach Colony. Silkworm Colony. Mealworm Colony. Waxworm Colony. Fruit Beetle Colony.
MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL http://www.youtube.com/user/alocheeky |
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Sta~ple
qeeun speler
United Kingdom
6129 Posts |
Posted - 30/04/2011 : 18:14:12
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If I was in your shoes, I would ahve kept it lol! If it's used to humans I don't see the harm in keeping since the law seems to state for some animals if they are tamed, it is illgeal to realse back in the wild anyway yet they can be kept as long as cared for. What is consiered a wild pet here, in other countries is not. There are a fair few crow breeders in the U.S. All animals are wild animals so I don't see why any should be excluded from not being a "pet".
I still thinks my snakes make a far better pet than my cats, dog and parrot, fish and maybe even the chickens! |
A very special super, duper thanks for K :3 |
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Dusk
Snake Mite
Ireland
19 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2011 : 03:50:48
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lotabob, thanks for that, I think he was better off being given a chance too. They can very well look after themselves We've never got hurt by Raisu, he will take food from our hands but he never bites. My sister found an injured seagull one day beside a factory fence, and rang me. I think he had been hit by a car, he was about twice the size of a crow, these guys are sooo huge! I wrapped him in a cover and took him to the vet, when I was getting out of the car I had to bend over him to get out of the door, I had him on my lap, and he took the opportunity to bite me on the boob It was very painful! Unfortunately he had to be put to sleep as he had internal injuries, poor guy. But definitely agree with ye there, they have the means to cause some serious damage!
Sta~ple, you have chickens too? Do you keep them for food or just for pets? And a parrot? Wow! You have your hands full there. I have 5 cats, 4 dogs, our crow and now our new addition, the corn snake. My daughter has two fish too. Depending on who we're fostering there can be more here too |
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Possibly a controversial topic...
