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princessbroxy
Hatchling
United Kingdom
310 Posts |
 Posted - 31/10/2010 : 19:37:55
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Hi guys I've not been on for a while i been building on my collection of snakes I've been up and down the uk collecting them i have a new Pastel,Spider,orange ghost royals and the brood from donny witch i was loving Until last night i went over to my local breeders for him to assist feed my new baby royal as she hadn't eaten since donny only to find out she had been pulled from the egg and looks like she or the other one hadn't eaten before as they were that young you can still the the cord marks on there belly's and with them being so young when the guy sexed them he hurt my little girl one to the point you can see the thumb print so were not sure if she will make it or not all depends on if she will pass the rat pinky or not and also if that weren't bad enough i have also discovered the orange ghost i got a couple of weeks ago might have IBD as the girl i got him from had a shipment in from the states from that Bob Clark and her bumblebee has it I'm really hoping i got him on time before he got infected as i picked him up the same day she got the shipment in i think her shipment arrived just before we got him so its another 2 weeks before i will know for sure I'm really stressed out by all this as that will wipe out my full collection |
0.0.2 Aneries: Dorito + Sparkles
1.1.0 Hypo Het Lavender Bloodreds: Chilli + Pepper
1.0.0 Motley Butter: Dave
0.1.0 Ghost stripe : Sssam
0.1.0 Lavender: Princesss Annie
0.1.0 Normal: Medusa (baby sitting for 3 years)
2.2.0 Royal Python: Rafiki , Zazu , Pumba + Timone
1.0.0 orange ghost Python:Buster
1.0.0 Pastel python: enygma
0.1.0 spider python:
Kendra
0.1.0 66% het pied: sally
1.0.0 red tail cat fish (Morph)R.I.P
7.2.0 cats (M.I.B.,Picasso,Dealy,Storm,Gokoo,Merc,Chaos,Stitch,Peanuts)
Welcome to my petting zoo lol
Have you ever noticed when you run into a spiders web you all of a sudden turn into a ninja |
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gmac
The Scottish Admin
United Kingdom
5319 Posts |
Posted - 31/10/2010 : 19:41:42
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| if you suspect IBD in any way, please make sure that she is quarantined from the rest of your reptiles, and if you are handling you must make sure of your hygene when handling between reps. |
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HannahB
The Corn Snake Moderator
United Kingdom
5491 Posts |
Posted - 31/10/2010 : 19:49:47
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got my fingers crossed its not IBD but do separate the rest of your snakes from him just to be sure - loosing one snake to IBD is bad enough but if you can minimise the chance of it being contracted by the rest of your collection then its worth doing,
hope your little royals recover ok |
2.0 Normal Royal Pythons - Q and Little One
1.0 Chihauhaun Mountain Kingsnake - Simba
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chrish
Hatchling
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 31/10/2010 : 19:50:27
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| Not to sound stupid but whats IBD? Pretty bad by the sounds of it. I hope they all come through ok... |
0.0.1 Bloodred
0.1.0 Snow |
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princessbroxy
Hatchling
United Kingdom
310 Posts |
Posted - 31/10/2010 : 19:52:40
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| I know all this now gmac but the problem is i didn't know till last night and i had him for 2 weeks so i had done the settling in period already so he was a cross the room from the rest of my snakes when i found out....I always ether wash or alcohol gel my hands between holding all my snakes so the hygiene part isn't the problem its the virus and how easy it is to transfer so were waiting with bated breath at the moment and hoping and praying its not. |
0.0.2 Aneries: Dorito + Sparkles
1.1.0 Hypo Het Lavender Bloodreds: Chilli + Pepper
1.0.0 Motley Butter: Dave
0.1.0 Ghost stripe : Sssam
0.1.0 Lavender: Princesss Annie
0.1.0 Normal: Medusa (baby sitting for 3 years)
2.2.0 Royal Python: Rafiki , Zazu , Pumba + Timone
1.0.0 orange ghost Python:Buster
1.0.0 Pastel python: enygma
0.1.0 spider python:
Kendra
0.1.0 66% het pied: sally
1.0.0 red tail cat fish (Morph)R.I.P
7.2.0 cats (M.I.B.,Picasso,Dealy,Storm,Gokoo,Merc,Chaos,Stitch,Peanuts)
Welcome to my petting zoo lol
Have you ever noticed when you run into a spiders web you all of a sudden turn into a ninja |
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gmac
The Scottish Admin
United Kingdom
5319 Posts |
Posted - 31/10/2010 : 19:52:57
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IBD ,
fingers crossed for you its not IBD.
Personally all of my snakes are quarantined for a few months before they go anywhere near my others.
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Edited by - gmac on 31/10/2010 19:54:51 |
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princessbroxy
Hatchling
United Kingdom
310 Posts |
Posted - 31/10/2010 : 19:57:21
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| Thanks for putting the link up gmac i couldn't describe it as it hurts to much to even think about it...i have separated them as of last night when i found out i have him in the kitchen and the others in the lounge but i think it might be to late for them if he has got it tbh. |
0.0.2 Aneries: Dorito + Sparkles
1.1.0 Hypo Het Lavender Bloodreds: Chilli + Pepper
1.0.0 Motley Butter: Dave
0.1.0 Ghost stripe : Sssam
0.1.0 Lavender: Princesss Annie
0.1.0 Normal: Medusa (baby sitting for 3 years)
2.2.0 Royal Python: Rafiki , Zazu , Pumba + Timone
1.0.0 orange ghost Python:Buster
1.0.0 Pastel python: enygma
0.1.0 spider python:
Kendra
0.1.0 66% het pied: sally
1.0.0 red tail cat fish (Morph)R.I.P
7.2.0 cats (M.I.B.,Picasso,Dealy,Storm,Gokoo,Merc,Chaos,Stitch,Peanuts)
Welcome to my petting zoo lol
Have you ever noticed when you run into a spiders web you all of a sudden turn into a ninja |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 31/10/2010 : 20:06:29
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IBD is possibly one of the worst things that could hit a royal or boa collection, other than cryptosporidium.
I cant remember what it stands for, however, you have about a 100% chance of the animal dying, as far as i know, there is no cure, and there isnt even an accurate test for it until the snake has died and a biopsy can be done.
PB, if you suspect IBD, then you MUST isolate all animals, your hygeine between handling ANYTHING to do with different snakes MUST be faultless, IBD is incredibly contagious, if you touch one snake that has it, then another, you can pretty much be certain the other snake will then get it.
How long have you suspected IBD in the royals?? i ask because its usually fatal in royals incredibly quickly, if its been a couple of days, then you are likely to be clear.
However, if you are right about the care of the babies then you are gonna have issues for a while yet, moving royals before they have fed can lead to some real problematic feeders, not all the time, but it certainly does happen.
Do bear in mind though, the umbilical line can be seen for many many weeks after birth, infact, you can see it in a lot of adults, so unless its an open wound so to speak, i dont think you have a problem with it.
Pulling a snake from the egg is highly likely to kill it within a few hours, the umbilical cord would snap and it would bleed to death from it, however, if it was a late hatcher, then it may have been cut open to help hatching, i had to do that with mine this year, and so far they havent had any issues.
The other thing with baby royals is a lot of people, including me, feed live for the first few feeds, it gets the digestion going and fuels their hunger.
The girl you got the snake from cannot be certain that its ibd unless the snake has already died and has had a biopsy done, there simply is no reliable test for it other than a biopsy, there are otehr illnesses that can seem like IBD, but as i say, in royals its 100% fatal, in a short time, i dont think there are 'carriers'.
I have to say though, Bob Clarke does not have a very good reputation anymore, this is public so i cant say anymore.
The main thing is, keep separate, keep hygeine between handling absolutely spotless, keep an eye on them, thats the best you will be able to do.
Sadly i dont think you will have much come back on bob clarke or anyone else, its a pain.
Good luck with it. |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 31/10/2010 : 20:09:54
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Its inclusion body disease, what it actually MEANS, thats where google comes in very handy!!!!
Usually its most common in boas, and takes a much longer time to kill them, but royals it kills very quickly, i think, and i stress, i only think, its within 24 hours.
Nope, i was talking rubbish!!! apparently it can be quite drawn out,
heres a link to someone who has had this disease in her royal collection, its worth a read, and maybe a good one to learn from , trying to avoid the same thing happening to your collection.........
http://www.anapsid.org/deanne.html
Hope thats of some use to you.
I just read it, bear something in mind, i might have missed it, but i didnt see where she ACTUALLY said it was IBD, despite saying she was gonna test for it.
I will try and find some good info for you on it.
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Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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Edited by - mikerichards on 31/10/2010 20:18:39 |
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gmac
The Scottish Admin
United Kingdom
5319 Posts |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 31/10/2010 : 20:19:26
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quote:
Originally posted by gmac
quote:
Originally posted by mikerichards
http://www.anapsid.org/deanne.html
Same link as mine then Mike 
mine had a different title  |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 31/10/2010 : 20:21:16
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quote:
Originally posted by princessbroxy
Thanks for putting the link up gmac i couldn't describe it as it hurts to much to even think about it...i have separated them as of last night when i found out i have him in the kitchen and the others in the lounge but i think it might be to late for them if he has got it tbh.
The main thing is to keep your hygeine between handling is spotless, thats the best you can do at the moment.
If worst case happens and you lose an animal, make 100% certain that it has a necropsy and is tested for IBD. |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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princessbroxy
Hatchling
United Kingdom
310 Posts |
Posted - 31/10/2010 : 20:21:40
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Thanks Mike, I know that not much can be said about certain breeders or dealers due to libel laws etc. I will be saying a lot however if I do lose snakes and can prove it's IBD. There are only two places it could have come from, the breeder or the person who imported him. If anyone is thinking of buying or swapping snakes in Northern Scotland please PM me and I'll get back to you with as much info as I can.
The Ghost is the one with the chance of IBD the two Donny royals are the bad eaters who appear much younger than the breeder stated, the young female has a thumb print in her lower belly from whatever was done to her either forced or badly handled, some breeders just don't care about normals as they don't make them any money after having to give them a couple of feeds. Fortunately we're getting help from an experienced breeder who can supply live feeds to try and get them going, it's weather or not she passes will be the test. |
0.0.2 Aneries: Dorito + Sparkles
1.1.0 Hypo Het Lavender Bloodreds: Chilli + Pepper
1.0.0 Motley Butter: Dave
0.1.0 Ghost stripe : Sssam
0.1.0 Lavender: Princesss Annie
0.1.0 Normal: Medusa (baby sitting for 3 years)
2.2.0 Royal Python: Rafiki , Zazu , Pumba + Timone
1.0.0 orange ghost Python:Buster
1.0.0 Pastel python: enygma
0.1.0 spider python:
Kendra
0.1.0 66% het pied: sally
1.0.0 red tail cat fish (Morph)R.I.P
7.2.0 cats (M.I.B.,Picasso,Dealy,Storm,Gokoo,Merc,Chaos,Stitch,Peanuts)
Welcome to my petting zoo lol
Have you ever noticed when you run into a spiders web you all of a sudden turn into a ninja |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 31/10/2010 : 20:30:57
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Can you stick a pic up of the thumb print please.
Sometimes baby royals can look sort of concave on the belly, it might be a fear thing or something to do with lack of food, mine looked like that until they had a few feeds.
I understand what you mean, thing is though you will have to prove it came from him before accusing, its such a persistent disease it could have come from any number of places, I think it might be crypto that mimics ibd, that CAN be tested for in a fecal test. |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 31/10/2010 : 20:43:19
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http://grizzlyrun.com/PetEDU/Inclusion_Body_Disease.htm
This seems to be quite a good bit of info. i will look for more.
A quote from Peter Kahls website, very similar to the above, but well worth a note
In pythons, the disease progresses much more rapidly than in boas. Along with the above symptoms (excluding the chronic regurgitation), pythons also tend toward infectious stomatitis ("mouth rot"), heightened or exaggerated reflex responses, disorientation (which may be precipitated by the onset of central blindness) and loss of motor coordination.
More good gen
Q: Can the disease be diagnosed in live snakes?
A: Yes...through blood testing
To determine the actual presence or absence of inclusion bodies requires biopsies of organ tissue for analysis.
Q: How long in minimum/maximum is the lifespan of an individual who exhibits symptoms of the disease?
A: It apparently fatal to all but the asymptomatic carriers.
At this point, do you have any suspicions that your animals do have the desease through YOUR observations??
i think now that you have the idea, its very important that you keep a really close eye on all of them, if there is anything out of the ordinary, and goes along with your suspicions, then get them tested.
as the last bit in italics states, the only way to be sure is to check for inclusions.
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Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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Edited by - mikerichards on 31/10/2010 20:51:17 |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 31/10/2010 : 21:16:31
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i just had a bit of a biochemistry lesson from Kate, my head hurts, in answer to what IBD does, it basically causes some kind of reaction in the body that kills off bits and peices of the liver, pancreas, kidneys, spleen brain and spinal column, including nerves.
It has been suggested that its a retrovirus, which in Kates words, we're f***ked!!! its capable of mutating, constantly changing and possibly changing into somthing far more lethal, and contagoious! basically, and this is how she described it to me, ( lol ) the insides of the actual cell die, becoming toxic and being useless, caused by the stuff in the system from the retrovirus.
The bottom line is, this is very very nasty, there is no cure for it.
have you had ANY symptoms since you have had the snake, sadly, if it does have it, its highly likely that the rest have it too, and i don think its solely limited to boas and royals, there was one suggestion that it has been seen in Corn eggs, which is bad, very bad.
I am sorry if i am being overbearing, i dont mean to press you, but this is a seriously infectious desease, possibly even being airborne, which would be serious if you have visitors.
The other pain is that the royal could be an asymptomatic carrier, meaning it has the desease, but does not show any symptoms, but can still pass it on to any other snake that comes into contact with anything from that animal.
The problem you have there, is that i dont think it can be tested if its asymptomatic, all the tests for it involve testing for the reactions to the virus, not the virus itself, hence why the only true way of being sure is a biopsy after death.
i will ask Kate, but she speaks in big haemotology words, it hurts my brain, i have to nod and pretend!!! lol
Talking to Kate again, even though Peter Kalhs site says you CAN test for it, the test does not SPECIFY IBD, it just specifies organ failure, which could have other causes. its really hard to specify, the only 100% certain way you will know is a biopsy.
With how contagious the virus is, and the fact it is 100% lethal, with my collection, if i had a snake show any possible symptoms, it would be sacrificed for biopsy, just to be sure, because if it came back positive, all animals should be euthanised, the suffering this disease causes is quite bad. |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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Edited by - mikerichards on 31/10/2010 21:27:37 |
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kdlang
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
3556 Posts |
Posted - 31/10/2010 : 21:18:50
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Oh PB, I can't offer any advice but just wanted to say I'm thinking of you and I hope it all turns out ok for you and your collection.
((((((Big hugs hun)))))) |
4.1.0 corns - Izzy (Carolina) Alice (Amel) Peanut (Butter Motley) Swayze (Ghost) Carmellia (Butter Motley)
0.1.0 cat - Kizzy
1.0.0 Dog - Dobbie
Location - Chesterfield, Derbyshire
www.support-dogs.org.uk |
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kdlang
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
3556 Posts |
Posted - 31/10/2010 : 21:27:16
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| Just thought of something. When I handle my snakes they don't just come into contact wih my hands, quite often they go up my arms, over my shoulders, on my knee etc. Due to the highly contagious nature of IBD, should the strict hygiene standards also include changing any clothes that have come into contact with each snake or even if they haven't come into contact with the snakes if it is airborne? |
4.1.0 corns - Izzy (Carolina) Alice (Amel) Peanut (Butter Motley) Swayze (Ghost) Carmellia (Butter Motley)
0.1.0 cat - Kizzy
1.0.0 Dog - Dobbie
Location - Chesterfield, Derbyshire
www.support-dogs.org.uk |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 31/10/2010 : 21:38:38
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until you are sure, animals should not handled at all, or at a bare minimum until you are certain you dont have the problem.
yet another chat with Kate, she basically described IBD retrovirus as a cancer, just a higly contagious form. the retrovirus that is IBD changes the cells themselves, like cancer does, it changes the DNA of the animal.
A good find that kate has found, which is a proper vet analysis, says that if a royal has IBD, it will die within days of being exposed.
Have a read, if there is anything you dont understand, i will ask Kate to clarify it, if i cant.
www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/171413.htm
its a real brain blower that one, but i would trust that more than a copied and pasted version of something. |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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chrish
Hatchling
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 31/10/2010 : 21:57:14
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Sorry to hijack the thread.
Mike, in that last article it sais that up to 50% of boas tested had IBD and that they can harbour the virus for years? Does that mean that this could be a major issue in a large amount of collections in the uk?
Im no doctor/vet/scientist but my vague understanding of a retro virus is that it is constantly mutating itself so at some point it will surely mutate into something that could infect a larger range of reptiles? (thats purely speculation on my part - no evidence to back it up)
Cheers |
0.0.1 Bloodred
0.1.0 Snow |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 31/10/2010 : 22:03:05
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quote:
Originally posted by chrish
Sorry to hijack the thread.
Mike, in that last article it sais that up to 50% of boas tested had IBD and that they can harbour the virus for years? Does that mean that this could be a major issue in a large amount of collections in the uk?
Im no doctor/vet/scientist but my vague understanding of a retro virus is that it is constantly mutating itself so at some point it will surely mutate into something that could infect a larger range of reptiles? (thats purely speculation on my part - no evidence to back it up)
Cheers
According to Kate (who, if you are unaware, if my O/H, she is a vetinary haematologist) this statement is theoretically correct.
50% of boas tested does not mean 50% of all animals in captivity though.
its kinda like saying 98% of people think loreals latest skin cream is the most wonderful thing in the world, if you see what i mean, (they only asked 100 people) |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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Edited by - mikerichards on 31/10/2010 22:03:48 |
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