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n/a
deleted
41 Posts |
 Posted - 14/06/2010 : 12:43:11
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or, Opening up a can of worms 101. 
Do you think keeping animals caged up inherently cruel? Does the level of care and attention you give them affect whether or not you are behaving 'ethically' in the treatment of your snake, or are you merely participating in something that is inherently cruel, regardless of how well you look after your animal?
Is keeping snakes more or less ethically justifiable than other types of animal? I'm thinking specifically in terms of the amount of space and attention that they need. Other pets (rodents and birds in particular) are considerably more active than snakes, therefore it could be argued that it's proportionally meaner to keep them caged up. Snakes are relatively more sedentary, so on that basis could it be claimed that it's somehow more ethically sound to keep them?
I've heard a convincing argument that - as snakes aren't naturally social creatures - they don't suffer the same stress from being kept alone as, say, rodents do, and that if they could find a 3' x 2' area in the wild that provided all their food, water, warmth and security needs, then they'd never leave it for the duration of their lives. I'm not sure on the accuracy of this (I'm not a scientist), but it's an interesting point.
I know this forum is going to be naturally biased(!), and I'm certainly not of the opinion myself that keeping animals as pets is inherently cruel (as long as they're kept in good conditions); I'm just curious as to what other peoples' thoughts/attitudes are towards animal husbandry, and snakes in particular.
My own opinion is that, by keeping Meryl healthy and secure in good conditions, I am providing her with the best possible life she could hope to have as a captive-born specimen - therefore I sleep soundly at night. However, I must admit that I still get pangs of guilt when I think that, by participating in the hobby, I am indirectly supporting the trade of thousands of other snakes across the world, many of whom may be kept in less than ideal conditions.
Please don't flame me - I'm only trying to be thought-provoking, not antagonistic. |
0.1.0 '09 Aztec Lavender, "Meryl" |
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mozacchio
Sub Adult
Greece
1135 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2010 : 12:48:24
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I have thought of this a million times..
I have ended up to the same conclution as you did.. |
Edited by - mozacchio on 14/06/2010 12:48:35 |
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herriotfan
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
5853 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2010 : 13:41:36
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I don't think I am being cruel by having Sidney in his vivarium. He gets all his needs met, other than those of reproduction, although he's still too immature at the moment!
I can see a case for birds kept in small cages and never allowed out. I do have a parrot myself but she is not in her cage all the time, day in, day out. She spends a lot of time interacting with me and the rest of the family. She has the largest cages (she has 2) we could accommodate and they both have plenty of interesting toys/games for her to occupy herself.
Providing the owners have thoroughly researched the needs of their chosen pet, and adhere to them, then I see many benefits for both owner and pet alike.
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Husband....Very Understanding!!! (Phil)
Son & Daughter (Kevin & Carol)
Granddaughter (Eva)
3.4.0 Cornsnakes Amel (Sidney) Caramel Stripe (Sultan) Amber (Cleo) Carolina (Phoebe) Anery Motley Stripe (Penny) Snow (Lily) Caramel (Holmes)
1.2.0 Royal Pythons(Peeps, Pandora & Pepsi)
1.0.0 Hognose (Hudson)
2.1.0 Dogs (Dillon, Alfie, Ellie)
0.1.0 Senegal Parrot (Peanut)
1.1.0 Bearded Dragons (Bonnie & Clyde)
1.0.0 Crested Geckos (Echo)
0.2.1 Hermanns Tortoises (Ebbie, Rosie & Twiglet)
0.1.0 Guinea Pig (Dolly-Pipsqueak)
0.1.9 Tarantulas (Poppy, Gypsy, Bumble, Insey Winsey, Sonic, Cookie, Raven, Fudge, Titch & Sox)
??? Foster animals
Location: Near Saffron Walden, Essex
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kdlang
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
3556 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2010 : 17:16:59
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very good subject. In fact I was thinking about this just yesterday. I think keeping animals in captivity is crucial for learning about them and, particularly in the case of snakes, breaking down the fear of them. I love to talk about my snakes to people and have introduced them to several of my friends who have been wary of them due to ignorance.
I sometimes feel quite guilty that I am depriving them of their freedom but I know I am providing them with the greatest level of care that I can and fulfilling their every known need. |
4.1.0 corns - Izzy (Carolina) Alice (Amel) Peanut (Butter Motley) Swayze (Ghost) Carmellia (Butter Motley)
0.1.0 cat - Kizzy
1.0.0 Dog - Dobbie
Location - Chesterfield, Derbyshire
www.support-dogs.org.uk |
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reptiledanny
Sub Adult
United Kingdom
1809 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2010 : 18:05:46
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| i don't feel we are being mean by keeping them as someone else would have bought them or captured them and probably not given them as good a life we have |
1.1 royal pythons 0.1 hog island boa 1.0 corn snake
sig made by stapey |
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Sta~ple
qeeun speler
United Kingdom
6129 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2010 : 18:19:19
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I always felt cruel keeping rabbits as my rabbits were quite big yet all rabbit hutches it seemed were quite small. I also use to feel a bit sad for birds kept in cages that they can't really fly in and we used to have these kind of birds. I think now if I kept budgies, canaries and finches I would keep many in an averary so that they could kinda of fly.
I am unsure about rodents, My boyfriends brother has a nice cage that is composed of many different levels that houses 4 rats which is fine but when you see so many rats n the same size cage but not so many levels it seems a bit cruel as they can't get away from each other.
My dad thinks it's cruel me keeping snakes but I feel these snakes are living in the best conditions, better than if they were wild. They are always guarantee warmth, care, food which wont fight back and hurt them and if they develop health problems they are more likely to live and recover than if they were wild. Some captive snakes would be better in the wild because of how the owners blatantly don't care about the snakes or have been given bad advise by petshops that don't care. I do admit I get quite worried how breeders keep their snakes, they seem to lecture people how to keep their snakes (separately and how to make sure they have the right size viv) and then they either house multiple snakes in one viv or then say that even snakes near 6ft are ok in vivs that are 3ft by 1... :/ A lot of breeders don't seem to handle or let these snakes out the vivs much either even though they can be in smaller that liked living conditions.
I have no worries with my snakes, they are in my opinion in the best care they can have in the world. If I had to get rid of my snakes and some corn snake expect said they would look after them, I would still feel they would be in better care with me as I know what is happening to them.
There's also some pets that should never really be kept as pets in my opinion and those who are more suited to it. I think any animals as long as they have the most basic and needed living conditions that has been domesticated breed and gets fed, watered when it's supposed to is probably better off living as a pet than in the wild.
I think really it's not a case of "should these animals be kept as pets?" it's really "should this person be allowed to keep pets?" |
   
A very special super, duper thanks for K :3 |
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Kazerella
The Corn Snake Admin
United Kingdom
3093 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2010 : 19:26:30
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I think you could apply this to many animals, not just snakes. If you think about it you would never really know the answer though because animals can't tell you how they feel. For example- dogs seem pretty happy being domesticated, but how do we know they wouldn't be happier running wild in packs?
I think pet keeping will always be controversial as so many people have different ideas on what is cruel and what is not.
I had this conversation with my friend the other day who said I should get rid of my Cane toad and my axolotls. She understood the snakes, but said keeping a cane toad was pointless and she thought that raising axies from eggs and keeping them in captivity was cruel. I had to try and convince her that Cane toads are imported from countries were they are pests, so if I didn't give Micky Marinus a home he would probably have been made into fertilizer, a wallet or be used as a cricket ball in places where they have become a pain like Australia. I also argued that keeping axolotls in captivity was vital because they are seriously endangered in there natural habitat and without captive breeding then they would die out completely. In my view that is justifiable, but she believes if they are going to become extinct then they should leave them to become so because it's natural. Both arguments could be said to be valid, but I personally wouldn't like axolotls to die out, when they potentially hold many medical mysteries that we still need to explore and their neotonic abilities are quite rare and should be studied more.
No one will ever be right really. It's about finding a balance between the differing opinions and making your own ideas on what you believe is right. |
 
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Nazzle
Hatchling
United Kingdom
138 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2010 : 22:49:59
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| Have you read A Life of Pie, it brings up all of the ideas of animals that could easily escape if they want to, but because theyy have all of their needs fulfilled they don't need to go elsewhere, so don't. An example of this is a Royal I care for who has been living in a viv for years (I'm talking an old style hinged door off of the seventies). I recently realised the door locks were useless as all that was needed was a little pressure in the right place and they popped open, even though they appeared secure from the outside. She's never escaped or tried to escape (even though it explains why every so often the doors were mysteriously open). Needless to say I've adjusted the doors now, and they are VERY secure just in case she changes her mind and makes a bid for freedom! |
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herriotfan
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
5853 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2010 : 22:57:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Sta~ple
I think really it's not a case of "should these animals be kept as pets?" it's really "should this person be allowed to keep pets?"
This is a very good point! I quite agree.  |
Husband....Very Understanding!!! (Phil)
Son & Daughter (Kevin & Carol)
Granddaughter (Eva)
3.4.0 Cornsnakes Amel (Sidney) Caramel Stripe (Sultan) Amber (Cleo) Carolina (Phoebe) Anery Motley Stripe (Penny) Snow (Lily) Caramel (Holmes)
1.2.0 Royal Pythons(Peeps, Pandora & Pepsi)
1.0.0 Hognose (Hudson)
2.1.0 Dogs (Dillon, Alfie, Ellie)
0.1.0 Senegal Parrot (Peanut)
1.1.0 Bearded Dragons (Bonnie & Clyde)
1.0.0 Crested Geckos (Echo)
0.2.1 Hermanns Tortoises (Ebbie, Rosie & Twiglet)
0.1.0 Guinea Pig (Dolly-Pipsqueak)
0.1.9 Tarantulas (Poppy, Gypsy, Bumble, Insey Winsey, Sonic, Cookie, Raven, Fudge, Titch & Sox)
??? Foster animals
Location: Near Saffron Walden, Essex
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n/a
deleted
41 Posts |
Posted - 15/06/2010 : 11:30:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Sta~ple
I think really it's not a case of "should these animals be kept as pets?" it's really "should this person be allowed to keep pets?"
That's a really good point, and I agree with the point made about the conditions it seems some breeder snakes are kept in, too. I suppose it's comparable to mice breeding - mice breed prolifically (sic?), so the argument that "I must be keeping them well, because they're breeding" doesn't really stack up in my opinion. When I used to keep fish, breeding was a big deal, because the tank conditions had to be good or very good for the fish, so if you were getting youngsters, it meant you were doing something right.
I'm not sure which (if either) of these camps snakes fall into, but I think it's fair to say that just because a 6' snake could survive in a 3'x1' viv, doesn't mean it should have to. |
0.1.0 '09 Aztec Lavender, "Meryl" |
Edited by - n/a on 15/06/2010 11:32:04 |
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mikeyd_26
Yearling
United Kingdom
716 Posts |
Posted - 15/06/2010 : 14:06:02
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| I recently read that you should treat snakes as a guest as well as a loved pet. If these needs are met i think it says it all |
   
0.1.0 amel - TaLuLa
0.1.0 anery motley het amel, hypo - Bo
1.0.0 vanishing stripe unknown - Marley
1.0.0 hogg island boa - Iggy
0.1.0 hogg island boa - Luna
0.1.0 royal python - Buttons!
1.0.0 royal python 66% het albino - Steve
0.1.0 leopard gecko - Sheila
millions of beardies! |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 15/06/2010 : 18:34:51
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| Any animal kept with its best interests in mind is probably safer and lives a much more stable life with less worries. Its health is always of paramount importance, it never needs anything more than it has. When people keep animals in sub optimum conditions then its another ball game. My corns live in fairly small tubs, but they are well cared for. |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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Sta~ple
qeeun speler
United Kingdom
6129 Posts |
Posted - 15/06/2010 : 19:54:25
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Can I be rude and ask what size tubs you keep your snakes in Mike? I'm just curious as I know you breed snakes :p
I know many corns can live happily in small tubs, I have one in a small RUB right now and she has been for about a month. I've heard many rules of snake size viv's such as one being the snake can be 1ft bigger than the combined length + depth of the viv but I think it really depends on the snake, I have one snake that would be fine with this and another which I would think that this rule would be very unfair if I let him live in such conditions.
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A very special super, duper thanks for K :3 |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 15/06/2010 : 20:22:04
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They are 35 ltr I think. Its not that big, but enough space to spread out in.
They are approx 18 inches by 12 at a guess. |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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Sta~ple
qeeun speler
United Kingdom
6129 Posts |
Posted - 15/06/2010 : 20:25:32
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| Is that for adults? |
A very special super, duper thanks for K :3 |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 15/06/2010 : 20:33:08
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Yes, most ofmy adults are between 3 and 4 ft.
Babies and up to about 18 mnths go in small tubs, 12x6. |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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Kellog
the nice one
United Kingdom
7308 Posts |
Posted - 16/06/2010 : 05:38:18
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What a great thread Mathew, I am so glad you started it. I know that in a sense we are all biased as we do keep snakes in captivity, but it is a subject that we must have all thought about....and if we havent then maybe we should.
quote:
Originally posted by Kazerella
........I think pet keeping will always be controversial as so many people have different ideas on what is cruel and what is not.
I had this conversation with my friend the other day who said I should get rid of my Cane toad and my axolotls........ I also argued that keeping axolotls in captivity was vital because they are seriously endangered in there natural habitat and without captive breeding then they would die out completely. In my view that is justifiable, but she believes if they are going to become extinct then they should leave them to become so because it's natural. Both arguments could be said to be valid, but I personally wouldn't like axolotls to die out, when they potentially hold many medical mysteries that we still need to explore and their neotonic abilities are quite rare and should be studied more.
No one will ever be right really. It's about finding a balance between the differing opinions and making your own ideas on what you believe is right.
I think you are so right in what you say here Kaz....pet keeping, or should I say animal keeping as I dont actually regard my snakes as pets, will always be controversial with people on either side of the argument and often people arguing with little or no facts.
In the case of your friend and the axolotls....has it not crossed her mind that it is not natural that they are becoming extinct but rather something that is being forced on them by the effects that us humans are having on the planet? So surely if it is our fault then it is up to us to put it right by breeding them in captivity until they can hopefully be released into the wild in areas where they will be safe - especially if there are benefits to medical science still to be discovered with them??
No one can be right, because there is no right answer covering all animals and all owners. Certain animals definitely shouldnt be kept in captivity and made to be pets and certain people definitely shouldnt be allowed to be owners......
quote:
Originally posted by Sta~ple
........I think really it's not a case of "should these animals be kept as pets?" it's really "should this person be allowed to keep pets?"
....but it is up to us to decide where we stand and accept that others may have differing views....but where those views are misguided then be willing to stand up and fight for what we think is right.
quote:
Originally posted by Nazzle
Have you read A Life of Pie, it brings up all of the ideas of animals that could easily escape if they want to, but because theyy have all of their needs fulfilled they don't need to go elsewhere, so don't........
A perfect book to bring up regarding this subject Nazzle and definitely worth a read....it really does make you stop and think about a number of different subjects.
So....where do I stand?
My dog is my pet and a member of my family. She interacts with us and communicates with us. She is loved and cared for as well as we can and is a healthy and happy dog - you just have to see her bounding around the garden with her ball or slumped at your feet while you stroke her ears to know that.
My snakes are not pets....they are animals I have the honour of caring for and they are my responsibility. I know I can never tame them and they will never respond to me as their owner or interact with me. But I dont mind about that. All that is important to me is that all their needs are met - they are well fed, watered, cared for, have enough space to move around in their vivs which have what they need to hide and climb, and they get time out of their vivs to be handled and have some 'freedom'. They dont know any different....which I think is an important fact....as any animal that is wild caught and then expected to live captive is wildness caged - cruel (unless there is good reason for it like an injury).
I think that as long as you can provide your pet with what it needs....the space to move around (be it inside its home or out), food and water, heat if necessary, healthcare....all the essentials....as well as love and, in many ways more importantly, a sense of the responsibility you have towards that animal and the respect you should show that animal....then you are standing on pretty firm ground. But the sad thing is the amount of owners who dont do that, who dont know better or just dont care  . And I do worry that we are propagating a trade that breeds snakes and sells them to these sorts of owners....so, in a sense, we are participating in the cruelty that comes along with that.
If I could change the world.......
xxx
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The Ethics of Animal Husbandry
