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DutchCorns
Snake Mite
11 Posts |
 Posted - 02/02/2012 : 20:57:31
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Hi folks,
We recently had the pleasure, after many sad years without reptiles, of taking over a young man's terrarium and corn snakes. Two adults and one juvenile in a very large terrarium, in which I have kept their original hides and added some desert plants and a much larger water bowl.
When we got them they appeared dehydrated, but otherwise in excellent condition. They've been used to living in the same tank for their whole lives-- the adults are between 5 and 6 years old and do most things in synch which makes me suspect they could even be from the same clutch, and the baby is one year old and in our opinion too small and delicate so we are worried about him.
They are on reptibark with hides, water, a warm and cooler end, rocks for effect, a few plants like an aloe and a sanseveria, branches to climb on, and a day and a night lamp.
All three snakes eat greedily every week (the adults eat 2 thawed mice each and the baby eats one thawed pinkie even though he is offered two, and is offered another one midway through the week which he also does not eat). They eat so well for us that the adults are usually already picking the mice up before I have completely put the snake in its bin and put the lid on.
Since we got them 5 months ago, the adults have each had two perfect sheds and the baby has had one.
Any tips on dealing with the little one would be appreciated. He just seems so SMALL! But he eats, he sheds, he is active enough and likes to come out and bask every other day or so, eyes clear and no skin blemishes or anything of the like. But he's a year old and I weighed him at 23 grams a few days ago. |
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herriotfan
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
5853 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2012 : 21:05:04
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Hi
Welcome to the forum.
I'm about to dash out and pick up my hubby so cant stop but you need to seperate the baby from the older snakes or they might eat him!!!
Somebody will give you more advise soon I'm sure.....
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Husband....Very Understanding!!! (Phil)
Son & Daughter (Kevin & Carol)
Granddaughter (Eva)
3.4.0 Cornsnakes Amel (Sidney) Caramel Stripe (Sultan) Amber (Cleo) Carolina (Phoebe) Anery Motley Stripe (Penny) Snow (Lily) Caramel (Holmes)
1.2.0 Royal Pythons(Peeps, Pandora & Pepsi)
1.0.0 Hognose (Hudson)
2.1.0 Dogs (Dillon, Alfie, Ellie)
0.1.0 Senegal Parrot (Peanut)
1.1.0 Bearded Dragons (Bonnie & Clyde)
1.0.0 Crested Geckos (Echo)
0.2.1 Hermanns Tortoises (Ebbie, Rosie & Twiglet)
0.1.0 Guinea Pig (Dolly-Pipsqueak)
0.1.9 Tarantulas (Poppy, Gypsy, Bumble, Insey Winsey, Sonic, Cookie, Raven, Fudge, Titch & Sox)
??? Foster animals
Location: Near Saffron Walden, Essex
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CentricMalteser85
Banned Again
United Kingdom
131 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 01:45:37
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Hi there, hopefully this advice will help you and I'm sure others will also advise you
Firstly, set ups
There is much debate on cohabiting, but I have to males simlar aged, together in a vivarium and no issues, however I would NOT put a baby in the same on. I appreciate it has arrived like this to you.
Also when you used the term basking, I am assuming you are using heatbulbs.
SETUP:
For the 2 adult corns, if they are 5 or 6 years old, I would think they are approx 5ft, maybe less, maybe more
You need either 2 X 3 ft vivariums, one each, or if you leave them together 1 X 4ft vivarium.
Heat mat a third of floor space on one side with thin layer of aspen, and thick layer on the cool side. Heat mat(s) MUST BE THERMOSTATED. Place thermostat probe and digital thermometre tied together in middle of heat mat(s), and turn the dial on thermostat until it turns off when the temp on digital thermometre reads between 80-85F
If housing together, - 2 hides on warm side, 2 hides on cool side, and obviously foilage, branches, decor etc
If housing seperately, 1 hide warm side, 1 hide cool side.
In both cases have a large water bowl on the cool side.
For the baby corn
you can use a vivarium 2ft or 3 ft providing there is LOTS of hiding, foilage etc so it feels secure
If not use a RUB (really useful box). Place a heat mat one third of floor space size inside, and again set up another thermostat and digital thermometre like you did for the adults. I would suggest drill a hole in the sid eof the rub for cables to go in and out, and once setup use aquarium sealant inside and outside where the hole is to block any spaces up. Have a hide for warm side, a hide for cool side, and small water bowl in the cool side, again use aspen as substrate, or newspaper, kitchen towel, thicker on the cool side, thin on the warm side, and again add decor.
FEEDING:
Most snakes do feed greedily, they are like a dustbin for mice, but it doesnt mean they are hungry, or need it and this can be power feeding which can cause issues
Adults: Firstly you need to establish if they are overweight or underweight. Two ways, measure the approx length and then weigh and let us know or easier way but not as accurate is the following.
If the cross section of the snake is like an "O" (ie a a circle) then chances are it is overweight - if this is the case I would feed one mouse that is 1.5x of the girth once every 14 to 21 days
If the cross section of the snake is like a traingle, then it is underweight, and would suggest one mouse that is 1.5x of the girth once every 5-8 days.
If the cross section of the snake is like an upside down "U" (or the shape of a loaf of bread), then weight isn't and issue and continue to feed one mouse that is 1.5x of the girth once every 10-14 days
The baby corn snake should be feeding one pinky every 5 days.
Baby corn snake can be more stressed than the adults and may result sometimes in non feeding, and the continous offer of food can cause more stress
Baby corns, should be fed ONE pinky every 5 days, and as it stops leaving a bulge in stomach, then 2 pinkies (snake eats one, wait for it to go down and snake becomes active and moves, then offer the second there and then) every 5 - 7 days.
If he refuses food, then do not try and persuade him, leave it in a small box with him in it, with air holes but secure, in dark warm place, if its not gone in an hour, discard the pinky, and wait another 5 - 7 days before offering. If he continues to refuse then look below at this great thread on how to get non feeders, feeding
http://www.thecornsnake.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21691&SearchTerms=non
Also when you do put them into new setups, do not disturb or handle for at least a week, and only go into their vivs/RUB to do spot check for poopping and to change the water daily
And avoid handling 48-72 hours after they have been fed, as this minimises regurge, and other issues, and I would advise avoid handling during shed. Most keepers have no issues by handling during shed, but its my opinion and something which I avoid doing.
I hope this helps and as I say to everyone, no question is a stupid one |
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tordyjo
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
2036 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 07:19:41
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| hi there, some great advice above |
 Lilly Crystal Harry
1.2.0 corns, 1.1.0 cats tropical guppies who continually breed
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DutchCorns
Snake Mite
11 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 08:53:31
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Hi again. I'm not a beginner, for the record; I was raised by a herpetologist and have had many snakes over the decades. The adults in my current group are in fabulous shape and we'll just keep on as we are. Again, it's the little one's seeming undersize that worries us. He does eat every single week without hesitation, and then if we see him out and about and five days or so have passed we often put him in his bin with a pinkie but those he doesn't eat so I guess we'll stop doing that. His shed was perfect. So should we maybe just assume he's unusually delicate and leave it at that, or is there some way to build him up a bit?
As for the other two eating him, in this case (and only this case) we've decided they almost certainly won't. They ignore him completely, and yes I know this could change but they're SO thawed-mouse fixated I don't think they even think of anything else as potential food. I set the bins out where they can see them, with the mice in, and the snakes come to the glass and wait for me to open the vivarium and pick them up. They eat, I put them back.
The info on here I did of course already know; as I said, not a beginner. The vivarium measures 120 cm long, 40 deep, and 70 tall. I've provided enough environmental features that they can go about checking stuff out; Omicron is particularly inquisitive about his surroundings. Most of the contents of the terrarium came with them, the rest they've been used to since September. As I said they are on Reptibark, cleaned out weekly while they eat, and have a few plants and several hides, and as described above also spots (one day, one night) and under-vivarium heating mats. Plenty of water. They like to look out the window the tank is next to. The two adults insist on cramming in together into the really big hide, unless one is out basking or watching us go about life (they seem to really like to watch the dog), although Omicron will occasionally take a break from Moo by going into the Arabic pot or under the woodpile. The little guy, Albacore, spurns the hides and has created a space for himself under the water dish; if he's not there he's basking in the aloe or on top of the the wood-full-of-holes hide. He reacts to any approach to the vivarium by being watchful but he doesn't move away; he seems very relaxed to me. The other two are downright goofy, they're so relaxed and oddly (for a snake) personable.
So, given he's tiny and delicate but also sheds well, eats readily, etc., and has great color, should be worried about him or not, and if yes, what's the best approach? I do not think a vet is called for but should that change the closest one who does reptiles is several towns away. Oh, forgot to mention, they do have reptile-specific vitamin drops in their water as well.
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Okeetee Mick
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
2308 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 09:53:03
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| Welcome to the forum |
0.1.0 Okeetee (Sookie) 0.1.0 Powder (Luna) 0.1.0 Bloodred (Arlene) 0.1.0 Caramel Stripe (Tara)
0.1.0 Ghost (Crystal) 0.1.0 Caramel (Jessica) 0.1.0 Lavender Stripe (Portia) 1.0.0 Platinum (Godric)
0.1.0 Thayers King (Lettie Mae) 0.1.0 Albino Blairs King (Lorena) 0.1.0 Russian Ratsnakes (Pam)
0.1.0 Korean Ratsnake (Katerina) 1.0.0 Russian Ratsnake (Lafayette)
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DutchCorns
Snake Mite
11 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 11:57:58
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| Thanks! |
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kdlang
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
3556 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 13:25:19
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It does sound like you have had alot of experience. Having said that, the fact that you are actually having concerns about the health of the smaller one indicates that something needs to change. Personally I would seperate the smaller one. Give him his own enclosure where it is easier to monitor his feeding and defacating routines. You cannot be sure whether it is the cohabitting with much larger corns that is the reason for his failure to thrive or not so i think eliminating it is a good course of action.
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4.1.0 corns - Izzy (Carolina) Alice (Amel) Peanut (Butter Motley) Swayze (Ghost) Carmellia (Butter Motley)
0.1.0 cat - Kizzy
1.0.0 Dog - Dobbie
Location - Chesterfield, Derbyshire
www.support-dogs.org.uk |
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DutchCorns
Snake Mite
11 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 13:38:16
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| Well, we are of course considering this, but given that he's now in the tank and under the conditions he's lived in since he was a tiny baby, it seems quite a bit of upheaval for him without seeming necessary-- he eats, he sheds, he hangs out, he acts relaxed. We do know exactly what he eats and what he excretes (for the latter, he has a spot he uses and the resulting pile is of course much smaller than those produced by the other snakes, so we know it's his). We're on the fence about changing his housing-- and that's on opposite sides of the fence, at that, so we'll see. The only thing that concerns us is his size and we don't even know if that is genuinely a reason for concern; he's ostensibly a year old this month, but it's also possible the teenager we got these guys from was wrong about that and that he's younger. Does his size sound like a cause for concern to you? Given, that is, that he eats like clockwork and excretes normal-looking waste regularly and is as active as the adults without being more so and is a good color and had an excellent shed. |
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tordyjo
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
2036 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 13:54:28
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| i bought a female last year who when i bought her weighed 20g and had been fed a maintenance diet of 1 pinky a week. according to the shop she hatched sept 2010 and we bought her end may 2011 at nearly 9 months age. I increased her feeds to 1 pinky every 5 days and very quickly she moved onto 2 pinkys every 5 days and put the weight on. Maybe just keep the feeds spaced to every 5 days rather than every 7. May be easier if you she's fed separately from the older snakes - they may think its their feed time too. |
LillyCrystalHarry
1.2.0 corns, 1.1.0 cats tropical guppies who continually breed
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DutchCorns
Snake Mite
11 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 14:06:31
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| That sound like a plan! I'll see about whether we need to separate to do that-- the other snakes are accustomed to being taken out at fairly random intervals for just plain handling (much to the delight of my seven-year-old son), so they might not get excited, we'll see. I am VERY reassured by your account. There really just doesn't seem to be anything wrong with him except sheer small size. Today is Friday, and so every time we approach the tank the adults stick their heads out and look at us-- tomorrow is mice day. Tomorrow, if it goes like always so far, little Albacore will present himself as well and hang out in the aloe until he sees his bin, then get excited. Meanwhile he's under the water dish; since we figured out he has been digging himself in there, we just always leave a small hollow space and a fingertip-wide "tunnel" when we change their water. Anyway, I'll see if we can get him working with that and if he doesn't take to it readily or if the others get antsy or anything we'll whip out the little terrarium that's languishing in the shed. I'll keep you folks posted. |
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DutchCorns
Snake Mite
11 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 16:30:20
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| By the way, I keep saying "he" and "she"... well, the kid we got them from said the baby had been confirmed male by a vet, but for the other two we have just arbitrarily assigned sexes based on a wildly inaccurate nebulous hunch. We've decided that Moo is a girl and Omicron is a boy, but that could be backwards or they could be both boys or both girls. We do not intend to try to breed them so it isn't worth stressing them with a probe-- nor the several-towns train trip to the rep vet. |
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kdlang
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
3556 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 17:02:18
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| You might not plan to breed them but if you have got different sexes in there then they will breed whether you like it or not and if your little one is female then it will be extremely dangerous for her to breed when she is too small |
4.1.0 corns - Izzy (Carolina) Alice (Amel) Peanut (Butter Motley) Swayze (Ghost) Carmellia (Butter Motley)
0.1.0 cat - Kizzy
1.0.0 Dog - Dobbie
Location - Chesterfield, Derbyshire
www.support-dogs.org.uk |
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DutchCorns
Snake Mite
11 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 17:48:55
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| Thanks for your input. The little one is the confirmed male, though, luckily. Anyway, from everything I have been avidly reading on the subject they have to go through a brumation period to really get in the mood and I am not planning one. If they DO decide to breed, which seems very unlikely, we'll follow the established guidelines and incubate the eggs, but given that they won't be brumated, the literature seems to indicate that it'd be very unusual to see such activity. |
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DutchCorns
Snake Mite
11 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 17:55:49
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| Just found a reference to the scale-counting method for getting a "likely" idea of the sex. How much credence should I give to this method? I luckily have complete shed skins on hand and have now done that count, and if there's much to it scientifically it seems we did have them backwards and that therefore Omicron is *probably* a girl and Moo is *probably* a boy. Again, it is the little one that is confirmed male by a vet. The other two are, I repeat, between 5 and 6 years old and about 140/150 cm long (thus 4.6 and 4.9 feet respectively)(Moo is bigger than Omicron). |
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DutchCorns
Snake Mite
11 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 18:04:09
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| Since people seem to be posting what other pets they have, I'll add that in addition to the three snakes we have a 1 1/2 year old orange tabby cat named Vincent, and 8-month-old dog Ruben (half Vizsla, 1/4 husky, 1/4 Fila Brasilero) and an aquarium containing two bettas (don't worry, only one is male!), 5 neon tetras and 5 red tetras, one albino catfish, two mollies, one fire shrimp, and two different algae-eating snails. |
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kdlang
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
3556 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 18:26:39
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Corn do not have to be brumated in order to successfully mate. You only have to read the number of threads of people who have had unexpected clutches because they put a male and female in together. One of my males hasn't been brumated and he is definitely in the mood. The others are starting to show signs of breeding season having started but aren't quite so active yet. I have to say that my males are seperate from the females so it isnt the scent of them that has encouraged this behaviour either.
If I remember rightly from a previous post on scale counting it isn't totally accurate. Most corns fall in the region of inconclusive i think. I havent ever tried it with mine although I have been tempted. I must look into it at some point and have a go |
4.1.0 corns - Izzy (Carolina) Alice (Amel) Peanut (Butter Motley) Swayze (Ghost) Carmellia (Butter Motley)
0.1.0 cat - Kizzy
1.0.0 Dog - Dobbie
Location - Chesterfield, Derbyshire
www.support-dogs.org.uk |
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DutchCorns
Snake Mite
11 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 18:32:17
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| OK. Well, these two have been together for years without reproducing, but should they do so I will thereafter take steps to make sure it doesn't happen too often (that'd be separation, of course). I am glad the little one is the boy and thus out of danger regarding breeding too early. |
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CentricMalteser85
Banned Again
United Kingdom
131 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 19:06:46
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Perhaps you should have stated this
If you were raised by a herp then you should know the common sense answers yourself.
And many will agree, that adult snakes eating 2 mice each week - every 7 days is too much and they will get obese!
Also if you leave opposite sexes together in the same tank, they will breed
Leaving the small one with the larger ones will do harm more than good
Also if two snakes are "cramming" together under one hide, this wuld suggest competition for that spot.
You say you're experienced but you are aksing questions that in my view have a pretty straight forward answer as I have outlined
quote:
Originally posted by DutchCorns
Hi again. I'm not a beginner, for the record; I was raised by a herpetologist and have had many snakes over the decades. The adults in my current group are in fabulous shape and we'll just keep on as we are. Again, it's the little one's seeming undersize that worries us. He does eat every single week without hesitation, and then if we see him out and about and five days or so have passed we often put him in his bin with a pinkie but those he doesn't eat so I guess we'll stop doing that. His shed was perfect. So should we maybe just assume he's unusually delicate and leave it at that, or is there some way to build him up a bit?
As for the other two eating him, in this case (and only this case) we've decided they almost certainly won't. They ignore him completely, and yes I know this could change but they're SO thawed-mouse fixated I don't think they even think of anything else as potential food. I set the bins out where they can see them, with the mice in, and the snakes come to the glass and wait for me to open the vivarium and pick them up. They eat, I put them back.
The info on here I did of course already know; as I said, not a beginner. The vivarium measures 120 cm long, 40 deep, and 70 tall. I've provided enough environmental features that they can go about checking stuff out; Omicron is particularly inquisitive about his surroundings. Most of the contents of the terrarium came with them, the rest they've been used to since September. As I said they are on Reptibark, cleaned out weekly while they eat, and have a few plants and several hides, and as described above also spots (one day, one night) and under-vivarium heating mats. Plenty of water. They like to look out the window the tank is next to. The two adults insist on cramming in together into the really big hide, unless one is out basking or watching us go about life (they seem to really like to watch the dog), although Omicron will occasionally take a break from Moo by going into the Arabic pot or under the woodpile. The little guy, Albacore, spurns the hides and has created a space for himself under the water dish; if he's not there he's basking in the aloe or on top of the the wood-full-of-holes hide. He reacts to any approach to the vivarium by being watchful but he doesn't move away; he seems very relaxed to me. The other two are downright goofy, they're so relaxed and oddly (for a snake) personable.
So, given he's tiny and delicate but also sheds well, eats readily, etc., and has great color, should be worried about him or not, and if yes, what's the best approach? I do not think a vet is called for but should that change the closest one who does reptiles is several towns away. Oh, forgot to mention, they do have reptile-specific vitamin drops in their water as well.
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Katie.Dublin
Sub Adult
Ireland
1560 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 19:32:39
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| Would kinda be inclined to stick with Centric on this one! I have two adult females co-habiting so i'm not completely against it... i would definitely stick the little one in another house though. Vivs are obviously really expensive but RUBs can be got relatively cheap! As for feeding. My 4yr olds are on one big/jumbo mouse every 10 days or two weeks. Two mice a week seems a hell of a lot. |
     
0.1 normal (Miami) - Hugo
0.1 hypo Motley - Spunky
0.1 MBK - Tequila. RIP
Horses, bearded dragons, a red tailed boa constrictor, a tortoise, a cat and a dog |
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DutchCorns
Snake Mite
11 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 19:32:48
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| Perhaps I should have stated what? That the snakes have been together for years was indeed mentioned. Anyway, I came on here to ask others' opinions about whether I should be concerned about the size of one snake. Then I personally thought that a friendly conversation had ensued. As the conversation is suddenly and to my mind inexplicably no longer friendly and my original question has indeed been answered, I will respectfully bugger off. |
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New here, concerned about tiny corn snake
