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Thante
Hatchling
United Kingdom
301 Posts |
 Posted - 03/11/2011 : 22:53:16
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So, Cherry is ill again it would seem. It seems that the first snake i ever got, is one of the most problem animals i've ever owned. Typical :P
For the last few weeks she has developed a lump on the underside of her neck, took her to the vets who gave her injections. But its come back, so i went back to the vets tonight. Yet again, surprise surprise ..... they have no idea whats causing the problem ... yay.
The best he can guess is that its related to the eye problem she had last year (that caused her eye to be removed) they think that removing the eye was removing the effect not the cause. And perhaps she is still suffering from it, getting massive build ups of liquid at the back of her neck (visible when her mouth is open). But this is a maybe.
Still no real sign of infection so peoples bets still seem to be on the idea that she is producing more tears then she should at a stupidly fast rate that have no place to drain to. But again the vet stressed that this is a very big maybe. but the only reason he had.
She may have to be on injections for the rest of her life :( which is depressing. But behaviour wise, hunger and shedding she is a perfectly normal snake. |
0.1.0 Cherry - 09 Normal
1.0.0 Tequila - 09 Caramel Motley |
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scottishbluebird
it is all my fault
United Kingdom
8403 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2011 : 01:57:45
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| How much does your vet know about snakes? would there maybe be a better reptile vet around. My vet is great for my other pets, but wouldnt take Kellogs there |
     
0.1.0 Corn - Kellogs
1.0.0 Hognose - Storm
0.1.0 Staffy - Lyla
1.0.0 Spaffy(staffy x springer)-Spyro
1.0.0 Ferret - Peanut R.I.P
0.1.0 Crestie - Fudge. Wish List - Pygmy hedgehog. Tropiocolotes |
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Thante
Hatchling
United Kingdom
301 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2011 : 02:20:35
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trust me, i've shopped around when it comes to vets. This guy is actually the 5th or 6th cherry has seen. None of which knew what was wrong. The vets that removed her eye are chester zoo's reptile vets, they where the best i saw ... however there also and hour and a half's drive away and i can't drive.
The guy i'm seeing now seems to know what he is talking about, and is the only reptile vet that i would trust in the aria. There is one other, but he was terrible. |
0.1.0 Cherry - 09 Normal
1.0.0 Tequila - 09 Caramel Motley |
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Mamma
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
4494 Posts |
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Mort13
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
5599 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2011 : 10:12:39
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Oh no,what a shame. She looks so good on your pics too.
Fingers crossed for her and you. |
      
3.1.0 Corn snakes, 1.0.0 T-Albino Cape House Snake, 0.1.0 Western Hognose,
1.0.0 MBK, 0.1.0 Childrens Python, 1.0.0 Nicaraguan Dwarf Boas
0.0.1 Occelated Skink, 1.0.0 Leopard Gecko, 1.0.3 Tarantulas, 0.0.2 Damon diadema
1.0.0 C0ckatiel,
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Sta~ple
qeeun speler
United Kingdom
6129 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2011 : 10:20:54
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| I hope she gets better soon ad they find out what's wrong. |
   
A very special super, duper thanks for K :3 |
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Thante
Hatchling
United Kingdom
301 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2011 : 14:33:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Mort13
Oh no,what a shame. She looks so good on your pics too.
Fingers crossed for her and you.
Thats the strange thing, every time she has a problem she acts like there is nothing wrong. No change in her behaviour (although the injections make her sleepy) perfect at shedding, never missed a meal, never regurgitated, happy and calm being handled, no recoiling if you touch her face.
If it wasn't for the giant swelling at the back of her neck you would never know !!
Its why i don't want her put down, because she is not in pain and its not damaging her quality of life. But obviously i want it fixed because i don't want it getting worse and to start effecting her. |
0.1.0 Cherry - 09 Normal
1.0.0 Tequila - 09 Caramel Motley |
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SheWolfey
Hatchling
United Kingdom
148 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2011 : 20:21:33
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I hope its nothing too bad  |
1.1.0 Cats (Baccus and Isis)
0.1.0 Carolina Corn (Indra) |
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Thante
Hatchling
United Kingdom
301 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2011 : 20:44:40
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So, update time :P
Took Cherry back to the vets today to get another jab of snakey-be-better medicine and saw yet another different vet. Although this one said he wasn't a specialist (i was only seeing him to get the top up injection) he almost seemed more knowledgeable then half the other vets i've seen with cherry. In fact as i to her out her box he said "Oh so we've got a corn snake" which by far beats one particular "reptile specialist" who's comment on seeing her was "wooow what a pretty colour, what is he?" needless to say i didn't go back to that vet.
So this new vet seems to be training to be a specialist, having mentioned that he has worked with the vet who removed Cherrys eye. He had a few solid ideas to what was wrong, which is nice :D. However it goes against what the specialist said. This guy thinks that its a simple infection (which in a way would be nice considering other possibilities), and that its just coincidence its on the same side of her head as the eye problem was. Seems that the other vet might have gotten caught up with the idea that its the eye instead of considering other more likely possibilities.
So who do i trust ? its confusing.
The specialist who reckons its connected to the eye, but has taken over a year to surface. And still has no idea what the problem is.
Or the trainee who worked with the lady who removed her eye and doesn't believe she would have missed a problem like this, making him believe its a standard infection.
Either way, both think that it will be ok, but that it will take a while to get better. Leaving her with a small lump on her neck ....... my poor ugly little babe :(
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0.1.0 Cherry - 09 Normal
1.0.0 Tequila - 09 Caramel Motley |
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Katie.Dublin
Sub Adult
Ireland
1560 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2011 : 20:52:06
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Awh don't day that, she's not ugly! Shes....rugged :D
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0.1 normal (Miami) - Hugo
0.1 hypo Motley - Spunky
0.1 MBK - Tequila. RIP
Horses, bearded dragons, a red tailed boa constrictor, a tortoise, a cat and a dog |
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lotabob
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
4334 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2011 : 21:01:35
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| Poor Cherry. Could they not do a biopsy of the lump or even just stick a needle in and see what comes out? |
Anery Corn snake SPOT. Royal Python, DUKE. Hogg Island Boa, SANKE. Albino House Snake, HAL.
Harlequin Crested Gecko HARLEY
Albino Horned Frog WAKA
Chilean Rose Tarantula TRIXIE. Brazilian Salmon Pink Bird-eating Tarantula SAM. Orange Baboon Tarantula BORIS.
Giant Asian Forest Scorpion, SALLY.
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Budwing Mantis, MAIA
Dubia Roach Colony. Silkworm Colony. Mealworm Colony. Waxworm Colony. Fruit Beetle Colony.
MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL http://www.youtube.com/user/alocheeky |
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Thante
Hatchling
United Kingdom
301 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2011 : 13:40:30
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i have asked, but both vets seem to agree that because of the amount of stuff she has had done on that side of her head already they want to give it a little time to see if antibiotics and steroids work. Which i kind of agree with atm, but if it doesn't show improvement they are going to test the lump.
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0.1.0 Cherry - 09 Normal
1.0.0 Tequila - 09 Caramel Motley |
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gingerpony
Queen Bee
United Kingdom
10455 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2011 : 20:52:25
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if she's treated with a course of antibiotics and it improves then that, to me, would indicate an infection, maybe a change of antibiotics or a longer course would be needed to get to the root of the problem
if antibiotics have no effect then i'd go for the tear duct problem
although the new vet is 'only a trainee' he'll still be a qualified vet but studying for his specialist certificate...........if he's younger than the other vet i'd prolly go with his theory (providing the evidence backs it up of course!) as he'll prolly have much more up to date information and training. |
cornsnakes, ratsnakes, bullsnakes, boas and day geckos
Location:Leeds/York/Selby area |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2011 : 20:27:44
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Out of interest, what antibiotics are they giving her? are they Jabs or oral?
When they removed the eye, what was said about the 'tear duct'??
I only ask, because they dont actually have a 'tear duct' as such, certainly not that goes to the eye. Their 'tear duct' actually goes and drains to the mouth.
Not sure about this one, Where abouts are you?? |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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Edited by - mikerichards on 08/11/2011 20:42:15 |
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Thante
Hatchling
United Kingdom
301 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2011 : 16:01:35
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She is having jabs of Baytril. I've given her oral meds in the past, but for this she is just having jabs up to now.
I kinda use the phrase tear duct to save me time have to write out a massive explanation. i know that what they produce aren't true tears, and are there to lubricate the eye enabling it to move behind the eye cap, unlike our eyes where they keep the eye clean as well. The liquid travels down into the nose to the vomeronasal organ (which is about halfway between then eye and nose) from there it drains in to the mouth where it is swallowed (I did quite a lot of research and asked a lot of questions last year before her eye was removed. snake anatomy is very interesting).
for a while they suspected that there was a blockage between the eye and vomeronasal organ, in what i think is called the lacrimal duct, but i could have the name wrong there. There is an operation that can be done on older snakes called a spectacular wedge resection, but she was way to tinny to be able to perform it. They kinda decided that it was a genetic problem where either she was born with a very very small duct or that she was producing way more liquid around her eye then she should be.
Hence i just say blocked tear duct as its much easier then writing out a full explanation and pretty much covers the problem :P
I'm in north wales, and it was birch Heath veterinary clinic in Tarorley that removed her eye. |
0.1.0 Cherry - 09 Normal
1.0.0 Tequila - 09 Caramel Motley |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2011 : 11:30:05
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The vomeronasal organ is the Jacobsons organ in the roof of the mouth, Look in the snakes mouth, its not halfway to the nose, and the Nasolacrimal duct drains to that.
One thing to note, vitally important, Baytril is BAD, really really bad to inject. Speak to your vets, change it straight away to Marbosyl.
Baytril causes tissue necrosis in reptiles, basically you go to pick them up, and all their skin and muscle sheers off the body, resulting in a very upset snake that then needs to be PTS. Baytril was not designed to be used on reptiles, orally is fine, but SubCut jabs are completely different.
Marbosyl is more reptile specific, its safe to inject and i think works better than oral baytril.
Speak to your vet, DO NOT take no for an answer. |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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Thante
Hatchling
United Kingdom
301 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2011 : 15:56:43
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by half way to the nose, i mean at a mid point between nose and eyes. most diagrams of a snakes head and anatomy place the jacobsons organ directly mid way between the eyes and the nose.
I am not a vet, i am simply trying to learn what is wrong with my snake, which is why i trust what i am told and shown by people with professional training.
Really, I'm quite surprised that Baytril is that bad. its what was given to her by Tarporly's vets who are the vets that do chester zoos snakes, and i honestly cant imagine them using something that could be that dangerous to snakes. especially not with the reputation that chester zoo has, they would want to do nothing to damage it.
Could you send me a link to some information on its adverse effects on snakes, as i can find nothing, and obviously i only want her to heal and not get any worse seeing as i have invested so much time, money and emotion in keeping her alive already. |
0.1.0 Cherry - 09 Normal
1.0.0 Tequila - 09 Caramel Motley |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2011 : 17:49:46
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I know where it is, have seen it on many snakes.
I dont have anything written down, only what i have spoken my vets about, had a friend have personal experience, and my O/H who is a vet lab tech, all these people who know about it. Just because YOUR vet doesnt know, doesnt make it so, it just means they dont know.
Hell, even the nurse at the vets knew. Its up to you at the end of the day. |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2011 : 17:54:32
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Have a look here. First bit where is says about anti biotics. on the right, particularly where its more or less advising that baytril is given orally as its safer.
http://www.anapsid.org/resources/rxdose.html |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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Thante
Hatchling
United Kingdom
301 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2011 : 18:50:22
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I don't want to come across as if i am neglecting your advice, trust me i am not, i'm taking it all onboard and have already acted on it. But nor am i the type of person to take all the advice given to me on the internet (if i had cherry would have died a year and a half ago) :P 9 out of 10 times people don't know what there talking about and make it up as they go along, or worse quoting incorrect websites (like wiki) to make themselves seem intelligent. please don't take this as be accusing you of lying. Its likely you may very well be that 1 in 10 who knows there stuff. but because of the high rate of fear mongers i always check with the professionals.
Thanks for telling me about the risk of Baytril.
I've just been and seen the vet again and spoke to him about the Baytril, he said that he understood the concern but not to worry. He is yet to have any negative side effects from administrating the drug. He explained that it can cause necrosis when the dosage is high or if it is doesn't disperse into the body properly. However she is on a very low dose, and he has never had a bad reaction in any snake. Where as he has in small mammals like hamsters and some lizards. I also asked about the drug you advised marbosyl, he backed you up saying that it was a very good drug for snakes, but also that it has the same chance of causing necrosis as Baytril.
However saying all this, she didn't receive an injection of either drug. Thankfully her treatment seems to have worked and the swelling is receding, before i asked my question he had decided to leave her for a week and see if she can finish healing on her own. So good news :D
He also took a couple of pictures as he is going to a conference next week for snake specialists and said he would ask around and see if anyone else had heard of the posable problems of using Baytril. |
0.1.0 Cherry - 09 Normal
1.0.0 Tequila - 09 Caramel Motley |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2011 : 10:45:38
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I understand what you are saying, and i also know there are lot of people who randomly spoutpoopthey heard from a mate who had a mate hear about something, i have also heard a lot of rubbish coming from so called experienced vets!!
The stuff i go on about here isnt for my benefit at all, it makes no odds to me whatsoever, i comment for other peoples benefit entirely.
I understand that you are not gonna take my advice over a vet, however, that doesnt make him right, they dont always know the full side effects of what they are giving, they cant, there is too much stuff to know, which is where Labs come in, and i have access to a full International Vet Lab through Kate, my partner, who deals with this kind of thing, drugs, dosing and side effects are part of their remit.
The problem is, Baytril is not designed for reptiles at all, it was developed before reptiles became a big hit, early 80's i believe, reptiles have a very different type of cell structure to mammals and this is why it causes problems. Marbosyl was developed for reptiles, it works the same way but with a slightly different mechanism.
I have had causes to give a few of my snakes antibiotic Jabs, including a few baby boas, i did the research, i spoke to vets and people who i know who deal with a lot of snakes, what i found out is that there have been a few cases within my circle of contacts where Baytril has not only causes tissue necrosis, but has caused the snake to slough its skin, not shed, its actual skin, down to and including some muscle.
Certainly that hasnt happened with every case, and i dont know what has happened in the run up to those cases, but i know the dosage wasnt wrong, but, it has happened, and as such it shouldnt be injected into reptiles, orally is fine, its a different transmission method, but subcut jabs are dangerous.
A lot of people use marbosyl now, and i havent heard of any cases of it causing tissue necrosis, and neither has my vet, so i personally think your vet told you that to placate you.
Funny thing is, if it was a human drug that caused that side effect, it would have been banned years ago! but because its animals, its an accepted side effect!! |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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Cherry is ill .... again
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