| Author |
 Topic  |
|
lee2308
The Corn Snake Moderator
United Kingdom
3348 Posts |
 Posted - 10/02/2011 : 16:23:04
|
| Sorry to drag a old thread up but was just thinking about this,what was the outcome of the PM?,just out of curiosity. |
  |
 |
|
|
Benji54
Hatchling
United Kingdom
449 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2011 : 18:56:34
|
| still awaiting results at the mo. i will make them public knowledge on here and TRB once i have them. at the mo, all snakes seem healthy and have recently fed tho i have concerns serendipity may be developing an RI now too. normally, as a rescue, i would have had her down to the vet as soon as i bought her but with prisma ive been distracted (and financially shafted!) |
1.1.0 corns "wotsit" and "biscuit"
1.0.0 Royal "ophion"
0.1.0 Coastal Carpet Python "Serendipity"
1.0.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake "Obsidian"
0.1.0 Bunny Rabbit (?) "truffle"
R.I.P "Prisma Pequeno" |
|
|
|
lee2308
The Corn Snake Moderator
United Kingdom
3348 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2011 : 19:51:00
|
| I know,vets must think were made of money,fingers crossed for you mate |
|
|
|
|
mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2011 : 22:44:13
|
Hi Mate, real shame to hear about your loss. a couple of things i would like to point out if i may.
IBD is a retrovirus, so is only likely to live for a short period out of the body, 24 hours ish.
As for the liver biopsy, if the snake is at the point you seriously suspect IBD then the chances of it pulling through any anesthetic are slim to none.
There is no reliable method of testing for ibd in a live snake, ibd has symptoms that mimic many other diseases, so even a positive result is not always positive.
Ibd is spread by contact, bodily fluids, saliva, urates, faecal, all the good stuff, and is extremely infectious, not only that, and this is the good bit, it will infect anything, you, me, corns, kings, the works. How it affects different species is not certain, but the fact it does is.
Whoever said it, might have been lee, is right, it effects royals a lot faster than boas, weeks even. A study of a royal with suspected IBD was done in america a while ago, as bad as it sounds, the snake was kept alive until it died 'naturally' due to the disease, in that case, it took in the region of 8 weeks, and that was with force feeding etc.
With Boas, in some cases the snake can carry the disease and not show any symptoms, this can go on for its entire life, or symptoms may manifest at some point later in its life.
Going back to the testing bit again, quite a few people genuinely beleive that this disease can be tested for with 100% certainty with the snake being alive. Even very well known boa breeders in america beleive this. It simple isnt the case, the way the disease works is quite complex, and as i said, other diseases symptoms can appear to be the same, even the stargazing, inability to right itself, lethargy and loss of appetite could be indicative of something else, admittedly, whatever is mimicking it is likely to be fatal too, however it might not be so infectious!!
To be sure of this disease, a spinal biopsy, liver, heart, and brain biopsies really need to be done.
One of the biggest problems is that IBD gets a lot of attention, and as such, diseases with similar symptoms are just ignored, a lot of vets assume that because of the symptoms, it must be IBD, which isnt the case.
Hopefully the PM results will be back soon, I hope its not IBD, fingers crossed. |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
|
|
|
|
mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2011 : 22:53:15
|
i cant find the article i read before, it was an good up to date one, most of the ones available are at least ten years old!!!
If you have any specific questions, i can ask my o/h, she is a vetinary haematologist, and understands how it all works!! i did ask her about it, but she started saying words i had no idea existed!! |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
|
|
|
|
mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2011 : 23:49:08
|
Another note on testing, there are many types of inclusion bodies, and as far as what i can tell, true ibd is a certain type of inclusion body, something like that cannot be done with a blood test or a simple biopsy.
Although a blood test and simple biopsy will yeald a result for inclusion bodies, they might not be the specific ibd inclusion bodies, it depends on the type of parasite that casues it. In all honesty, i dont fully understand it, Kate is going to try and get hold of some papers from work about tests they have done, and hopefully see some bloodwork on a positive snake, i will be doing my best to understand it all!! What i learn, i will share. |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
|
|
|
|
Benji54
Hatchling
United Kingdom
449 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2011 : 11:12:31
|
your quite right mike, the liver biopsy would have given signs as to the type of disease but not specifically to ibd. If you are on The Rainbow Boa, my post on there is in much more detail than on here and you might find it interesting. I do mention in that that its not actually 100% certain if IBD IS a TRUE retro virus. complicated to explain again but check it out if your interested, id be interested in your views on my...well...essay!
I have monitored all my other snakes and strict hygiene measures are in place. thay always are, but now they are being adhered too more stringently than ever. i will do everything in my power to stop this affecting my other snakes. its been over 2 weeks since prisma and both pythons and corns SEEM ok. touch wood. ive even considered resuming a virological study i began a while back. i was doing in depth research into the spread and behaviour of ebola. once work here has calmed down i may flip my research and study IBD, see what i can come up with. probably nothing, im sure greater minds than mine are at work on it, but its always interesting to do a bit of a study eh?
thanks for your kind thoughts and advice, like i say check out my TRB posts. ill keep you all posted. |
1.1.0 corns "wotsit" and "biscuit"
1.0.0 Royal "ophion"
0.1.0 Coastal Carpet Python "Serendipity"
1.0.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake "Obsidian"
0.1.0 Bunny Rabbit (?) "truffle"
R.I.P "Prisma Pequeno" |
|
|
|
mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2011 : 12:08:26
|
I couldnt find anything much on the brb, only what you wrote on here really.
There is a lot of speculation on the sources of ibd, and simply, no one knows. I think probably what happened is that when it first showed up, people spent many years with no idea what was going on, and in the early 70's they simply didnt have the means and methods we do now.
It also seems to be something that, although serious, wasnt taken all that seriously. Taking a snake to the vet with a stargazing tendency would quite often end up with the Vet running around shouting IBD, which isnt helpful, and more often than not, the snake would be destroyed there and then, on the basis it was highly contagious and not fair on the snake etc etc. The problem is, there are other diseases that manifest in the same way, and a lot of vets dont have enough of an understanding about it, bearing in mind that a vet mainly treats, anything remotely difficult or serious, samples go to vet labs. As i mentioned, my o/h works at a Vet Lab, as a haematologist, they are not short of samples!! she does loads every day!! My point is, your average Vet is not clued up on diseases, they can speculate, but will nearly always do samples to be sure.
From looking at study papers, there are a lot of papers dated mid to late 90's, a few early 80's, and i havent found any from the 70's, papers from less than 10 years ago are few and far between. That in itself is a problem, its old information, although some of it may be accurate, its likely that new things have been developed, and as far as it goes, something new has been developed for IBD, and i only found it in one paper!! Link at the end of this!
As with so many things, there is far too much assumption, usually on the part of the vet practice, IBD is a scare word, as soon as it is mentioned on any forum people start to panic, hypochondriacs appear all over the place, everyone goes crazy.
As for the spread of it, Mites are very certainly a possibility, AS LONG as the initial cause or the inclusions are attacking the blood, if they havent got that far, then its not gonna pass on. Saliva, mucus, urates and faecal, all the same, if its attacking that part then yes, if it hasnt got that far then no, and as for it being aerosolised, why not? snakes sneeze, they hiss, all that throws microscopic particles about, all potentially infected. Those are the only real ways that it can be transmitted, ignoring our influence, from one snake to another, its not just gonna get out and float over, so if you keep your snakes apart, ideally in another room, or at least not right next to each other, then you are minimising your susceptibility. The only other way is through handling, and that just comes down to personal hygiene and handling ethics.
However, bearing in mind that snakes also carry salmonella on their scales, you really want to be cleaning anyway!!! lol.
the fact that a snake can carry live salmonella on their scales goes to show that even a clean viv isnt always as clean as you might think, not many people think about cleaning the snake as well.
I think if you want to do a study on IBD, then you need to be affiliated with a lab, the tests you need to be doing are not something you are gonna be able to do at home.
heres the link :
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0ByvTXmvNvVxeNjBhNWUzNmEtMDU4OS00YjA1LWIyMjAtMGIxYjU1NmE2MWY3&hl=en&authkey=CMOEjJgK&pli=1 |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
|
|
|
|
Benji54
Hatchling
United Kingdom
449 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2011 : 13:15:16
|
thanks very much mike, thats very interesting! i was thinking about drumming up a few of my uni friends and even my old school maybe. I looked into the pattern of contagion and its hard to find anything as concrete as what you say so thanks for that, it seemed a lot of sources on the net had just plagurised the same one study!
your partially right about the vet i guess, he did say "it seems like a definite neurological problem which points IBD" (as he's a Boa) but samples are obviously being done now to try to confirm. my handling hygeine is always very good/proffesional but as i say. have definitely redoubled my efforts since Prisma. thanks for an interesting read. |
1.1.0 corns "wotsit" and "biscuit"
1.0.0 Royal "ophion"
0.1.0 Coastal Carpet Python "Serendipity"
1.0.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake "Obsidian"
0.1.0 Bunny Rabbit (?) "truffle"
R.I.P "Prisma Pequeno" |
|
|
|
mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2011 : 16:03:24
|
| i am not saying the pattern of contagion is concrete, however, if all other option are no possible, then that leaves with one plausable option, unless of course it has developed another way of being transmitted, and to be honest, as much as out cats would like to to be, the evil eye doesnt really work!!!! If you look at other viruses and retroviruses, there are very distinct methods of transmission, and for the majority, they are all the same methods. |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
|
|
|
|
Benji54
Hatchling
United Kingdom
449 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2011 : 18:49:35
|
| i know its not concrete as such but you at least have given a few helpful, specific examples as opposed to saying "mites, contact, aerosolised secretions" which is what 99.99% of resources offered! thanks again Mike |
1.1.0 corns "wotsit" and "biscuit"
1.0.0 Royal "ophion"
0.1.0 Coastal Carpet Python "Serendipity"
1.0.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake "Obsidian"
0.1.0 Bunny Rabbit (?) "truffle"
R.I.P "Prisma Pequeno" |
|
|
|
Benji54
Hatchling
United Kingdom
449 Posts |
Posted - 22/02/2011 : 17:33:34
|
dont worry, i havent caved in all ready lol! just thought id keep my word and let you all know that Prismas results came back NEGATIVE for IBD. which is good. no one can tell me exactly what it was though. which is bad. the PM results only showed "a neurological damage and dehydration" which im told is pretty standard results for any neuro-condition. the 2 good points to take are 1) it was definitely nothing i did wrong, or could have cured, which at least offers me peace of mind and 2) it doesnt seem to be any where near as contagious as IBD. obviously everything is still quarantined untill further results can be gathered...just thought id update you all as you'd all offered your advice and support along the way :)
oh well, bye again! :S |
1.1.0 corns "wotsit" and "biscuit"
1.0.0 Royal "ophion"
0.1.0 Coastal Carpet Python "Serendipity"
1.0.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake "Obsidian"
0.1.0 Bunny Rabbit (?) "truffle"
R.I.P "Prisma Pequeno" |
|
|
|
Red123
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
2030 Posts |
Posted - 22/02/2011 : 19:41:24
|
Ben, I'm glad that the results came back negative for IBD, I guess its going to be one of those things that you never know. I hope the others stay healthy for you. All the best.
Rachel. |
Corn Snake
, 1.0.0 Amel (Stan),
Royal Pythons
1.0.0 Normal (Nigel)
1.0.0 Albino (Tony)
Boa Constrictor Imperator
0.1.0 (Agatha)Western Hognose
0.1.0 Normal (Stevie)
0.0.1 Schneider Skink (George)
1.0.0 Extreme Blonde Harlequin Crested Gecko (Bert)
4 GALS.
Tarantulas
Red Rump (B. Vagans) Jo.
Chaco Golden Knee (G. pulchripes) Charlie, Greenbottle Blue (C. cyaneopubescens) Gus, Honduran Curly Hair ( B. albopilosum) Titch, Mexican Fire Leg (B. boehmei), Salmon Pink Bird Eater(L. parahybana), Fort Hall Baboon (P. Lugardi) Blanche, Stout Leg Baboon (E. Pachypus) Graham, Chilean Rose (G. Rosea) Glen.
Border collie x (BoB), 2 Cats (Lucky & Dip), 17 Goldfish, and The Dubia Family |
|
|
|
mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 22/02/2011 : 19:48:38
|
That's good news, peace of mind at last! There are a lot of things that cause similar symptoms, which is why a pm is the only way to go with suspected ibd.
Without lots and lots of tests you won't be able to find out, sadly I think you'll have to leave it as one of those things. |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
|
|
|
|
Benji54
Hatchling
United Kingdom
449 Posts |
Posted - 23/02/2011 : 10:39:08
|
the vet has kept all tissue samples and they will be usable for years so if, god forbid, any other snakes start showing similar symptoms, we can do more tests but for the moment, im gunna have to leave it as they're just sooo expensive! 
ps cheers rachel and mike  |
1.1.0 corns "wotsit" and "biscuit"
1.0.0 Royal "ophion"
0.1.0 Coastal Carpet Python "Serendipity"
1.0.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake "Obsidian"
0.1.0 Bunny Rabbit (?) "truffle"
R.I.P "Prisma Pequeno" |
|
|
|
mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 24/02/2011 : 01:20:50
|
| thats good, but if whatever it is is attacking neurologically, then you wont be able to reverse it, you might stop the damage, but i dont think it would be reversable. fingers crossed that its stayed in the one animal. |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
|
|
|
|
Newbie
Yearling
950 Posts |
Posted - 24/02/2011 : 22:26:34
|
| So glad its not IBD and hopefully not terribly contagious |
1.0.0 Carolina Motley Cornsnake - Vin, 0.1.0 Brazilian Rainbow Boa - Rio, 0.1.0 IJJ Carpet Python - Luna, 0.1.0 Dwarf Sunfire Reticulated Python - Helia, 1.0.0 Royal Python - Jasper, 0.1.0 Spaniel - Jess; RIP Gypsy - a beautiful girl through and through, 0.1.0 Rabbit - Binky, RIP Indy, Jan 2010 - Aug 2011, and Ace, Jan 2009 - Aug 2011 |
|
|
|
Benji54
Hatchling
United Kingdom
449 Posts |
Posted - 25/02/2011 : 17:41:47
|
| i hope so too! the vet said enough time has passed so we're out of the danger time hopefully (all my other snakes are pythons or corns and corns cant contract most boidae diseases and pythons get sick quicker so hopefully we are all clear... :) |
1.1.0 corns "wotsit" and "biscuit"
1.0.0 Royal "ophion"
0.1.0 Coastal Carpet Python "Serendipity"
1.0.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake "Obsidian"
0.1.0 Bunny Rabbit (?) "truffle"
R.I.P "Prisma Pequeno" |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
worst news i could have had...IBD
