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chrish
Hatchling
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
 Posted - 30/10/2010 : 17:24:42
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To avoid going off topic again in another thread...
quote:
Originally posted by mikerichards
http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp
2 mice @ 10g each
3g of fat each
4.4g of protein each
thats 6g of fat and 8.8g of protein for both.
1 rat @ 20g
11.2g protein
5.5g fat
Point proven.
No offence but you've manipulated data to suit you're own argument. If you work it the other way round:
1 x 20g Mouse - 11.16g Protein, 4.72g Fat
2 x 10g Rat - 5.61g Protein (each), 2.75g Fat (each)
Resulting in - 11.22g Protein, 5.5g Fat
Rat has 0.06g extra protein BUT 0.78g extra fat |
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gingerpony
Queen Bee
United Kingdom
10455 Posts |
Posted - 30/10/2010 : 17:55:45
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thanks for starting a new thread to discuss this  it's much appreciated to stop the other thread from deviating
besides the nutritional information regarding mice versus rats, does anyone know the actual nutritional requirements of corns through their various life stages? as surely this is relevant.......... |
cornsnakes, ratsnakes, bullsnakes, boas and day geckos
Location:Leeds/York/Selby area |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 30/10/2010 : 19:55:10
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quote:
Originally posted by chrish
To avoid going off topic again in another thread...
quote:
Originally posted by mikerichards
http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp
2 mice @ 10g each
3g of fat each
4.4g of protein each
thats 6g of fat and 8.8g of protein for both.
1 rat @ 20g
11.2g protein
5.5g fat
Point proven.
No offence but you've manipulated data to suit you're own argument. If you work it the other way round:
1 x 20g Mouse - 11.16g Protein, 4.72g Fat
2 x 10g Rat - 5.61g Protein (each), 2.75g Fat (each)
Resulting in - 11.22g Protein, 5.5g Fat
Rat has 0.06g extra protein BUT 0.78g extra fat
I havent 'manipulated' anything at all.
what i actually said is that if you are feeding your snake 2 10g mice then 1 20g rat is more nutritional, which is correct.
If you are feeding 1 large mouse, then 2 smaller rats is a: not financially clever, b: pointless.
a pinky of about 5g is 44% protein and 30.1% fat.
a rat pup of same size is 57.9% protein and 23.7% fat.
there you go. |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 30/10/2010 : 20:02:02
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quote:
Originally posted by gingerpony
thanks for starting a new thread to discuss this it's much appreciated to stop the other thread from deviating
besides the nutritional information regarding mice versus rats, does anyone know the actual nutritional requirements of corns through their various life stages? as surely this is relevant..........
I cant find anything with specific requirements, but, i think the actual amount of calories needed would vary a great deal, a young corn can survive on 1 pinky a week, but would grow much quicker on 2, even on 3, without actually getting fat.
an adult on the other hand could eat far less and survive comfortably, yet more regular feeding would lead to obesity.
i will try and find out if anyone has done a study on their actual needs for suvival, i wouldnt be surprised if they havent though. |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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chrish
Hatchling
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 30/10/2010 : 20:12:17
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Using your own argument:
quote:
If you are feeding 1 large mouse, then 2 smaller rats is a: not financially clever, b: pointless.
Why would you feed 2 x 10g mice instead of 1 x 20g mouse?
A 20g mouse has 0.06g less protein BUT 0.78g less fat - Hence is probably better for the snake.
Going by the study that you recommended if you're feeding a prey item upto 10g then rats are nutrionally better, but when you get over 10g the percentages are:
Mouse - 55.8% Protein 23.6% Fat
Rats - 56.1% Protein 27.5% Fat
So rats are significantly "fattier" than mice.
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Edited by - chrish on 30/10/2010 20:13:56 |
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Sta~ple
qeeun speler
United Kingdom
6129 Posts |
Posted - 30/10/2010 : 20:46:54
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This is where my head explodes *_* numbers *_*
Although, from short, lame experience, 1 mouse that is exactly the same size length and width wize as a rat, the rat is heavier. In short again, Jumbo mice, my snake wasn't obese, weaners rats (although they were probably either very big small ones or medium weaners to be fair) I get a porky snake.
What Mike says makes sense to me supringly. If you double feed mice, a rat could actually be better than 2 mice. This is why I don't like the whole double feeding, you can end up giving a snake much more than it needs specially when it's an adult.
Better make another topic for nutritional needs of a corn lawlz >>;
You feed 2 10g mice incase the shop hasn't got the size you want or you are trying to build up for the next size mice. There are a few people that have to feed 2medium or 2 large mice as the shop simply doesn't stock mice big enough. Arguably you could use a rat.
Cause I can't see it on that table as umbers completely mind f me, I would be interested to know the different between weaners rats and jumbo mice. I would guess that cause the mouse is old it doesn't have so much goodness and because the rat is still growing that it is better? I would guess it varies with age for most animals as young ones seem to have a lot of fat stored.
This might be good to have a gander at too http://www.frozenfeeder.com/sizing.html
There is also this page http://www.leedspetshops.co.uk/index.php?main_page=page&id=69
It's not really significantly a lot :s maybe over a lot of time but one feed itsn't going to mean you can use your snake in the chip pan. |
   
A very special super, duper thanks for K :3 |
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chrish
Hatchling
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 30/10/2010 : 21:15:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Sta~ple
This is where my head explodes *_* numbers *_*
Although, from short, lame experience, 1 mouse that is exactly the same size length and width wize as a rat, the rat is heavier. In short again, Jumbo mice, my snake wasn't obese, weaners rats (although they were probably either very big small ones or medium weaners to be fair) I get a porky snake.
What Mike says makes sense to me supringly. If you double feed mice, a rat could actually be better than 2 mice. This is why I don't like the whole double feeding, you can end up giving a snake much more than it needs specially when it's an adult.
Better make another topic for nutritional needs of a corn lawlz >>;
You feed 2 10g mice incase the shop hasn't got the size you want or you are trying to build up for the next size mice. There are a few people that have to feed 2medium or 2 large mice as the shop simply doesn't stock mice big enough. Arguably you could use a rat.
Cause I can't see it on that table as umbers completely mind f me, I would be interested to know the different between weaners rats and jumbo mice. I would guess that cause the mouse is old it doesn't have so much goodness and because the rat is still growing that it is better? I would guess it varies with age for most animals as young ones seem to have a lot of fat stored.
This might be good to have a gander at too http://www.frozenfeeder.com/sizing.html
There is also this page http://www.leedspetshops.co.uk/index.php?main_page=page&id=69
It's not really significantly a lot :s maybe over a lot of time but one feed itsn't going to mean you can use your snake in the chip pan.
You've contradicted yourself, if you had an obese snake on rats but not on equivalent sized mice then there must be significantly more fat in the rat than in the mouse
The difference between them is the last percentages i used, mice have ever so slightly less protein but a good bit less fat. |
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gingerpony
Queen Bee
United Kingdom
10455 Posts |
Posted - 30/10/2010 : 21:34:42
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quote:
Originally posted by mikerichards
I cant find anything with specific requirements
that, to me, sums it up exactly
you can rant about fat and protein contents till you're banned blue in the face but if nobody can actually put it into perspective with actual requirements it's all irrelevant and whether you feed mice or rats is down to personal preference and your own experience.
i'm still not sure why you're not comparing like for like ie. a 20g mouse to a 20g rat though, other than to make the figures appear to back up your theory........ |
cornsnakes, ratsnakes, bullsnakes, boas and day geckos
Location:Leeds/York/Selby area |
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gingerpony
Queen Bee
United Kingdom
10455 Posts |
Posted - 30/10/2010 : 21:44:43
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and to clarify with an example.....
quote:
Originally posted by mikerichards
2 mice @ 10g each
3g of fat each
4.4g of protein each
thats 6g of fat and 8.8g of protein for both.
1 rat @ 20g
11.2g protein
5.5g fat
Point proven.
where has anyone done a study or any research proving that snakes need 5.5g of fat per feed rather than 6g? or 11.2g of protein rather than 5.5g?
you quoting figures proves nothing other than you can add up.
it IS scientifically proved that cats need a higher fat content in their diet compared to dogs but until anyone produces data on snake's i'll do things my way and you can do what you like. |
cornsnakes, ratsnakes, bullsnakes, boas and day geckos
Location:Leeds/York/Selby area |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 30/10/2010 : 21:49:33
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quote:
Originally posted by gingerpony
and to clarify with an example.....
quote:
Originally posted by mikerichards
2 mice @ 10g each
3g of fat each
4.4g of protein each
thats 6g of fat and 8.8g of protein for both.
1 rat @ 20g
11.2g protein
5.5g fat
Point proven.
where has anyone done a study or any research proving that snakes need 5.5g of fat per feed rather than 6g? or 11.2g of protein rather than 5.5g?
you quoting figures proves nothing other than you can add up.
it IS scientifically proved that cats need a higher fat content in their diet compared to dogs but until anyone produces data on snake's i'll do things my way and you can do what you like.
You have made up your own agenda now, is it just so you can try and shoot me down again??
No one has said anything about their needs, other than you, so YOU can back up your own ideas.
You crack on doing what you want, i wasnt trying to change what you do, i was disagreeing with what you said.
You can pick holes in what i say until the cows come home, its makes no difference to me whatsoever, i am still right. |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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gingerpony
Queen Bee
United Kingdom
10455 Posts |
Posted - 30/10/2010 : 21:57:55
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quote:
Originally posted by mikerichards
i am still right.
please feel free to back up your claim mike, really, please do!
i have no agenda, i'm simply pointing out that nobody can prove who's right or wrong, we do things the way we do because it works for us but it doesn't necessarily mean another method is 'wrong' |
cornsnakes, ratsnakes, bullsnakes, boas and day geckos
Location:Leeds/York/Selby area |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 30/10/2010 : 21:58:08
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quote:
Originally posted by gingerpony
quote:
Originally posted by mikerichards
I cant find anything with specific requirements
that, to me, sums it up exactly
you can rant about fat and protein contents till you're [s]banned [/s] blue in the face but if nobody can actually put it into perspective with actual requirements it's all irrelevant and whether you feed mice or rats is down to personal preference and your own experience.
i'm still not sure why you're not comparing like for like ie. a 20g mouse to a 20g rat though, other than to make the figures appear to back up your theory........
I did ask.
And i have asked again. |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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Edited by - mikerichards on 30/10/2010 22:02:43 |
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gingerpony
Queen Bee
United Kingdom
10455 Posts |
Posted - 30/10/2010 : 22:02:55
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| you could always ask for your account to be revoked? however you generally give good advice which would be missed, this current chip on your shoulder wouldn't be though |
cornsnakes, ratsnakes, bullsnakes, boas and day geckos
Location:Leeds/York/Selby area |
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chrish
Hatchling
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 30/10/2010 : 22:11:52
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I could of sworn this thread was about feeding....im also sure it was started to avoid going off topic in another thread...not that im hinting at anything *cough*  |
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Sta~ple
qeeun speler
United Kingdom
6129 Posts |
Posted - 30/10/2010 : 22:29:51
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quote:
Originally posted by chrish
quote:
Originally posted by Sta~ple
This is where my head explodes *_* numbers *_*
Although, from short, lame experience, 1 mouse that is exactly the same size length and width wize as a rat, the rat is heavier. In short again, Jumbo mice, my snake wasn't obese, weaners rats (although they were probably either very big small ones or medium weaners to be fair) I get a porky snake.
What Mike says makes sense to me supringly. If you double feed mice, a rat could actually be better than 2 mice. This is why I don't like the whole double feeding, you can end up giving a snake much more than it needs specially when it's an adult.
Better make another topic for nutritional needs of a corn lawlz >>;
You feed 2 10g mice incase the shop hasn't got the size you want or you are trying to build up for the next size mice. There are a few people that have to feed 2medium or 2 large mice as the shop simply doesn't stock mice big enough. Arguably you could use a rat.
Cause I can't see it on that table as umbers completely mind f me, I would be interested to know the different between weaners rats and jumbo mice. I would guess that cause the mouse is old it doesn't have so much goodness and because the rat is still growing that it is better? I would guess it varies with age for most animals as young ones seem to have a lot of fat stored.
This might be good to have a gander at too http://www.frozenfeeder.com/sizing.html
There is also this page http://www.leedspetshops.co.uk/index.php?main_page=page&id=69
It's not really significantly a lot :s maybe over a lot of time but one feed itsn't going to mean you can use your snake in the chip pan.
You've contradicted yourself, if you had an obese snake on rats but not on equivalent sized mice then there must be significantly more fat in the rat than in the mouse
The difference between them is the last percentages i used, mice have ever so slightly less protein but a good bit less fat.
But I didn't if you read although it's my fault for not making it clearer. I as pointing out things that had happened to my snakes and also saying there might be a difference but it would take years. I never once said anything in any favour either side of the argument, I never realised I had to :s
The weight gain on rats with my snake happen over some several years with my snake. Arguably, the same could have happened with jumbo mice but I only fed him them for half a year so, the comparison of half a year to several years worth of rats isn't a fair comparison from me, admittedly. And to be fair most weaners rats are slightly bigger and heavier than jumbo mice anyway, that's why I upped him up to weaners. They were a kind of similar size but a bit bigger.
Also now looking at my feeding's for my other snake,she has actually packed on more weight on Jumbo mice and weaners rats weirdly although maybe I have some very small weaners left and it could be the rats catching up to her somehow, who knows but I haven't got enough records to say what it is or the knowledge. To start with, being fed on large mice she weighed 276g. 6 feeds on rats later, she weighed 345g. 4 feeds on Jumbo mice after that left her at 393g. Now kids, I was feeding her weaners for the sole purpose of fattening her up. Plus the rats needing eating up and she loves them. I don't those things stink we defrosted to me x.x
11.5g put on for every rat I think
12g put on for every Jumbo mouse I think
Of course, this could be due to many things why it varies, like different times of year and activity. I am merely just putting up my records, not aiding in any fisty cuffs. This was a month after a lay so :/
I have no idea on the weights of the weaners, but the Jumbos were 30g+. The weaners looked a bigger than the Jumbos but I have no idea on weight. These were the same size rats my obese snake was on but all the bigger rats would have been given to him, leaving all the smaller ones left for her.
Of course the results are going to vary, it changes with the age of each rodent which, is different based on age and with them being younger is more fat. Babies certainly look like the have more blubber when born than anything else though some humans do seem to keep it >>;
Oh guys, can we like stop it with then red text thing everywhere *_* like when it used to be done with edits it was fine but now even in edits and quotes its coming across really pathetically catty? Probably not meant to but it does >.<
I also don't think Mike was saying you should only feed rats but rather point out in some instances, mice are worse than rats as there is a trend on here that's like "stay away form rats or your corn will die" :/
Bit unfair to bann someone because of a difference in opinions gp? I thought you were a fair mod.. if you do a lot of the forum is going to need to be banned as most for us have difference in opinions. It's a debate, not an arguments. Stop taking it personally. |
A very special super, duper thanks for K :3 |
Edited by - Sta~ple on 30/10/2010 22:33:01 |
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chrish
Hatchling
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 30/10/2010 : 22:42:56
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Im going to end on this...i cant find any information anywhere about what snakes actually require in their diet...so this whole debate is futile.
As far as percentages go, gram for gram:
Below 10g Rats have more protein less fat than Mice
Above 10g Rats have ever so slightly more protein but Mice have less fat and more minerals.
You never know, it may turn out that everybody is wrong and snakes should always be fed flux capacitors!  |
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Sta~ple
qeeun speler
United Kingdom
6129 Posts |
Posted - 30/10/2010 : 22:53:04
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^ Indeed. It all depends on age like I said :) In a few days a baby rat is almost 10g anyway, it takes longer for mice to reach that weight.
Weirdly enough rabbits look like a mixture to me. My maths skills are poor though and this screen is awful so some numbers look like different numbers to me.
My my, those hammies are quite fat little things >>; certainly for xmas dinners. |
A very special super, duper thanks for K :3 |
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gingerpony
Queen Bee
United Kingdom
10455 Posts |
Posted - 30/10/2010 : 22:55:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Sta~ple
Oh guys, can we like stop it with then red text thing everywhere *_* like when it used to be done with edits it was fine but now even in edits and quotes its coming across really pathetically catty? Probably not meant to but it does >.<
i've been editing in red for years
quote:
Originally posted by Sta~ple
I also don't think Mike was saying you should only feed rats but rather point out in some instances, mice are worse than rats as there is a trend on here that's like "stay away form rats or your corn will die" :/
i believe mike was saying 'my way's right, you're all wrong' he's been abusive and upset numerous forum members hence his warning level
quote:
Originally posted by Sta~ple
Bit unfair to bann someone because of a difference in opinions gp? I thought you were a fair mod.. if you do a lot of the forum is going to need to be banned as most for us have difference in opinions. It's a debate, not an arguments. Stop taking it personally.
i do take it personally when somebody says i'm wrong yet has no proof.......wouldn't you? i've not publicly suggested mike gets banned, he says he's asked to be banned, i suggested he ask for his account to be revoked.
i don't have a problem with differences of opinion as long as i'm not told i'm wrong when really i'm not, i just have another way of skinning the cat. however i DO have a problem with victimisation on this forum and i will not tolerate it, is that being a bad Mod? |
cornsnakes, ratsnakes, bullsnakes, boas and day geckos
Location:Leeds/York/Selby area |
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Sta~ple
qeeun speler
United Kingdom
6129 Posts |
Posted - 30/10/2010 : 23:18:11
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To be fair, in that example he was right in that case. I'm sure there is another way around and many examples which back up the reverse. And where actually did he say you was wrong? I haven't got my glasses on, but I can't see it. It's difficult to compare as the weight range being given is so wide making it hard to pick examples.
He's not victimising anyway, just saying his opinions. Yes it's blunt but it works. He's only upset 1 that I know of. And that person has upset other people too but you never gave them a warning level or even a proper warning it seems. |
A very special super, duper thanks for K :3 |
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Mort13
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
5599 Posts |
Posted - 31/10/2010 : 00:26:24
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Hi,well I'm not sure if this is on topic or not but I'm intrigued as to whether all mice/rats etc all have the same fat content etc?
Can't help but wonder as us humans vary so much?
Are only the podgiest ones sold as food or are there variations! |
      
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Tiffany-x
Sub Adult
United Kingdom
1189 Posts |
Posted - 31/10/2010 : 08:50:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Sta~ple
To be fair, in that example he was right in that case. I'm sure there is another way around and many examples which back up the reverse. And where actually did he say you was wrong? I haven't got my glasses on, but I can't see it. It's difficult to compare as the weight range being given is so wide making it hard to pick examples.
He's not victimising anyway, just saying his opinions. Yes it's blunt but it works. He's only upset 1 that I know of. And that person has upset other people too but you never gave them a warning level or even a proper warning it seems.
He isnt victimising because YOU arent on the recieving end, if you read his comments in reply to mine on several threads you will find that he has in fact been extremely rude and the exact reason I havent posted in a few days, so to me whether I get banned or not I couldnt care less because I am no longer using the forum apart from nosing around. He is in fact a pathetic excuse for a person trying to intimidate me, I refuse to let him continue. And as of the past week or so he has become a very different person, I used to think he was ok, really helpful etc, now he just picks faults and brings more negativity to this forum than I have seen since Ive been here. So now you know, he HAS been victimising, and has ruined this forum for some of us, but there you go. :) |
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Feeding Mice Vs Rats
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