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btcc11
having a break...
United Kingdom
35 Posts |
 Posted - 04/09/2011 : 01:25:49
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| No that was a direct insult to me, I was just asking to stop being sarcastic with me, awlred you're being bias. |
The United Kingdom isn't a country! Add England fool! |
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gmac
The Scottish Admin
United Kingdom
5319 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2011 : 01:34:01
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Awlred posted a joke so lighten up,
This thread is starting to get out of hand so lets keep it on track now. No more off topic nonsense please |
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Edited by - gmac on 04/09/2011 01:34:19 |
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Sta~ple
qeeun speler
United Kingdom
6129 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2011 : 09:43:21
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None of the wild stuff my cats get is big enough for my snakes, they are always tiny little voles things. And speaking from experince, mice and rats eat anything, they will nibble through fabric, plastic... any lots of stuff I wouldn't want the mouse to eat itself really let alone my darling snakes. They chewed through a big plasic container in my b/f garage (probably to get at the chicken food!), nibbled on raw hicken that was left to defrost and they have chewed my dads car seats, packets of crips, mars bars...Although I know a lot of people who would argue about wild small rodents and not to use but some how they would think wild rabbits are ok to feed :/ Not saying w/c is wrong but I do agree with GP with the worming issue, I'd never worm my snakes unless I knew something was a miss with my snakes and their bottom with breeder mice, maybe being a bit too trusting there though XD but if I did use wild caught, I would de worm them and parasite them every few months. (I'm sure this is still on topic right)
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A very special super, duper thanks for K :3 |
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Mamma
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
4494 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2011 : 10:19:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Sta~ple
None of the wild stuff my cats get is big enough for my snakes, they are always tiny little voles things. And speaking from experince, mice and rats eat anything, they will nibble through fabric, plastic... any lots of stuff I wouldn't want the mouse to eat itself really let alone my darling snakes. They chewed through a big plasic container in my b/f garage (probably to get at the chicken food!), nibbled on raw hicken that was left to defrost and they have chewed my dads car seats, packets of crips, mars bars...Although I know a lot of people who would argue about wild small rodents and not to use but some how they would think wild rabbits are ok to feed :/ Not saying w/c is wrong but I do agree with GP with the worming issue, I'd never worm my snakes unless I knew something was a miss with my snakes and their bottom with breeder mice, maybe being a bit too trusting there though XD but if I did use wild caught, I would de worm them and parasite them every few months. (I'm sure this is still on topic right)
You will get a right telling off for it not being!  |
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PandorasBox94
Snake Mite
United Kingdom
11 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2011 : 18:22:23
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Great topic, ive had a look at some pretty interesting posts and perspective views.
Personally i would avoid live feeding. Particularly if theres a chance my corn could be bitten or scratched. Unfortunately people who are not snake owners and are unfamiliar with the concept just jump to the conclusion that all live feeding is cruelty but i understand that there are people that have been found to carry live feeding out for their entertainment and such, which saddens me. I also would say i side that it is cruelty to both animals, but everyone has their own opinions and i respect anyone who chooses to live feed appropriately and as humanely as possible. |
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gingerpony
Queen Bee
United Kingdom
10455 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2011 : 20:31:38
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obviously we have different opinions but that was sooo nicely and tactfully put
makes a change from being told 'you're wrong and you're evil!' lol  |
cornsnakes, ratsnakes, bullsnakes, boas and day geckos
Location:Leeds/York/Selby area |
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tarrantulasteve
Snake Mite
United Kingdom
28 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2011 : 19:42:30
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now here is a topic to of which i probably will get slated alot.i would never live feed my snake a mouse rat etc purely for the thought of injuring my snake.if i got the mouse from a reputable food source and there was absoulutlety no other option for feeding my snake i.e no frozen pinkies etc within 30miles (never going to happen) id kill a mouse and then when it is dead feed it to the snake.ive worked in both abotoirs and slaughterhouses since i left school.but i am a firm believer in frozen mice has been used for years and years so if it aint broken why fix it.frozen mice are the way forward.
this opinion sharing could go to the point of mc donalds slaughtering cows for food so we can live right through to the little isects like the occasional meal worm i feed my hamsters to the grasshoppers ive just fed my tarrantulas.its the cycle of life if i didnt kill it and feed it to the snake.im sure somewhere in the "wild" there is a snake killing a mouse right now |
alot of Tarrantulas.and a few new corn snakes
http://www.bluelizardreptiles.co.uk
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MiniC
Snake Mite
United Kingdom
20 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2011 : 20:44:14
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Apologies if I have missed what I'm about to say in the comments I have scanned through them (9 pages got me nicely through peeling the spuds!).
I know corn snakes are a different beast to other snakes but as that's what I have that's where I'm coming from.
I have no moral or ethical objection to live feeding if done for necessity, I don't think anyone here would think that live feeding for fun is in any way acceptable. However I feel I would probably go to assisted feeding before live feeding depending on the condition of my snake. If they are underweight, weak and/or poorly are they not more likely to come to harm at that time from a lively, healthy prey? (No value judgment, purely enquiry). If we were *not* at the stage of significant health deterioration then maybe I would offer a live before assisted feeding if a fresh kill was not taken (I'm sure instinct would be enough as mine has never seen a live mouse)but I would then move back to f/t as soon as I could.
If a snake will take, and thrive, on f/t or freshly (humanely) killed prey, I would have an objection to feeding live. In keeping snakes the way we do we remove natural risks to them inherent in their natural environment, the risk to both predator and prey is there if feeding live and if you can get good nutrition, a happy snake and no risk of harm then why pose a risk to either party unnecessarily? If they won't survive and live well on anything other than live then so be it, it's the way of the world and I am comforted a bit by the fact that snakes have been designed from scratch as efficient killers and it will be fast and probably painless for both parties.
My big dog would happily catch, kill and eat pretty much anything and would sustain himself entirely this way. I had the (mis)fortune to see him in action and he is fast...really fast, that hare didn't know what hit it, but there is no reason for him to hunt as he is thriving on his current diet. I see no need to treat my snake any differently...until there is a need to treat my snake differently iyswim?? |
Sam x
2.1.0 Cats (Riff-Raff, Magenta & Foster)
1.1.0 Dogs (Nelson & Muji)
1.0.0 Ferret (Fidget)
1.1.0 Hedgehogs (Pinnsvin) R.I.P Dolly Rodger <3
1.0.0 Corn x Texas Rat (Baldrick) |
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btcc11
having a break...
United Kingdom
35 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2011 : 21:53:57
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| So I've noticed some people here are for live-feeding so what would be the moral status of feeding my corn snake to my dog? He's pretty hungry and I'm sure he'd love it! |
The United Kingdom isn't a country! Add England fool! |
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gingerpony
Queen Bee
United Kingdom
10455 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2011 : 22:03:10
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| a cornsnake is not a staple diet of a dog, you're just being argumentative now............. |
cornsnakes, ratsnakes, bullsnakes, boas and day geckos
Location:Leeds/York/Selby area |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 15/09/2011 : 10:15:16
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quote:
Originally posted by btcc11
So I've noticed some people here are for live-feeding so what would be the moral status of feeding my corn snake to my dog? He's pretty hungry and I'm sure he'd love it!
Stupid mor.. moro.. I cant do it! you get the idea. Stop making stupid pointless arguements.
The whole point of live feeding is to get a non feeding snake, usually a royal or boa, to eat again.
Another comment on here, corns being different to other snakes, how exactly?? They are just as an efficient killer as a boa or python.
The whole thing about a mouse scratching the snake, what exactly do you think the scales are for??????? beleive me, a mouse will not bite through the scales, let alone scratch through.
I think people are missing the point slightly, live feeding is something that should be done when NEEDED, when the snake hasnt eaten for a while, or is being overly fussy. If the snake will take fresh kill or defrost, then its not NEEDED. I feed mine fresh kill a lot, i dont bother with live unless its something that has issues feeding fresh kill, baby royals and baby boas, never once have i come across a Corn thats needed live to convince it to feed.
Anyone who thinks a cornsnake is any less able to catch and kill its own food, including large mice, is deluded. They are essentially wild animals, they havent been domesticated, they have all their natural instincts in place, they are more than capable.
Fresh kill feeding is always going to be preferable to live feeding, if i have something that will feed fresh kill, then thats what it gets, i dont then give it live just because its easier, not many people would. Mostly that situation is gonna happen with snakes that are notoriously fussy, baby boas and baby royals, they really sould be started on live, then moved to fresh kill, then defrost, feeding live whilst on defrost is moving backwards.
I breed a lot of mice, and i use fresh kill, i get a better feeding response from the snakes and its nice and easy, no defrosting involved! Anything that doesnt get eaten is fine to freeze for another day.
Assist feeding and force feeding are last ditch attempts, i would always always try live before doing that, and i would recommend to anyone to try live before force feeding. |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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Sta~ple
qeeun speler
United Kingdom
6129 Posts |
Posted - 15/09/2011 : 11:47:22
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quote:
Originally posted by btcc11
So I've noticed some people here are for live-feeding so what would be the moral status of feeding my corn snake to my dog? He's pretty hungry and I'm sure he'd love it!
Your being an idiot and missing the point completely. First off being snakes can be picky with food, while dogs eat anything. Live feeding for snakes is done as a last or near last resort not because people do it for the lolz. |
A very special super, duper thanks for K :3 |
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Krazy Kim
Snake Mite
United Kingdom
12 Posts |
Posted - 15/09/2011 : 22:21:49
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| I know I'm pretty knew to keeping snakes and thankfully mine has never been even remotely fussy if a had to I would feed live but id probably talk to the vet about all options available first. |
k j neale |
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xxlillybudxx
Snake Mite
United Kingdom
4 Posts |
Posted - 16/09/2011 : 18:12:55
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mky whole life ... well from a very early age at least ... my family has had pythons... and i've never known ANY of them to eat frozen ... so when i got my corn snake last week i was suprised to learn that there is such debate on live feeding and whether it should be done or not .... i suppose it DOES genuinely all boil down to what your snake is used to ... if it has only ever eaten live then i think it's a bit mean to then say no you can have a frozen one or nothing... but again if it's only ever known frozen then it's equally mean to just chuck in live prey because it's what YOU want .... i guess it's all about the best thing for your snake and how they have been fed previuosly x
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lotabob
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
4334 Posts |
Posted - 16/09/2011 : 19:20:45
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I dont think I've ever commented on live feeding before (though dont quote me on that) so I shall share my views on it, its quite simple as i see it, predators eat other animals. Most animals are built extremely well to kill their prey in the quickest way possible with the smallest risk to themselves and snakes are no different. I don't see it as cruel or irresponsible either snakes are built to kill, they have more muscle mass than they would ever need to move or climb, this is purely for the kill, they have a layer of armour with their scales to protect their skin and soft tissues and their teeth face backwards for holding onto moving prey. They do kill their prey quicker than we could in the humane ways used on our frozen food.
I buy frozen mice and rats for my snakes and have absolutely no idea where they come from or the conditions they live in so is that cruel? It might be. Someone breeding and bringing up their own food for live feeding are giving them the very best life possible for a prey item and the snake will see to its death in a very quick way so quality of life and speed of death makes that a far better option for the mouse and I amire them for the time they devote to their animals.
There is also the point of I live feed crickets to my Gecko and my Tarantula, The Gecko kills them very slowly, by crushing their heads, and my Tarantula just holds onto them and punches them full of holes injecting venom but thats not a fast death either, does that make this practice cruel? I don't think it is, my crickets get looked after very well while they are alive. What makes feeding mice so controversial and yet feeding insects totally acceptable?
There will always be the debate of is it right or wrong but if its done right and responsibly then really there are no issues legal or morally. I don't live feed but thats not saying I never will, I have a Royal Python and sometimes situations arise where its required to live feed (this can arise with any snake, it is something to consider before getting one) so if that situation ever arises then I will do what is best for all the animals involved. |
Anery Corn snake SPOT. Royal Python, DUKE. Hogg Island Boa, SANKE. Albino House Snake, HAL.
Harlequin Crested Gecko HARLEY
Albino Horned Frog WAKA
Chilean Rose Tarantula TRIXIE. Brazilian Salmon Pink Bird-eating Tarantula SAM. Orange Baboon Tarantula BORIS.
Giant Asian Forest Scorpion, SALLY.
Giant African Land Snails, SHELDON & MICHELLE.
Budwing Mantis, MAIA
Dubia Roach Colony. Silkworm Colony. Mealworm Colony. Waxworm Colony. Fruit Beetle Colony.
MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL http://www.youtube.com/user/alocheeky |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 16/09/2011 : 22:56:59
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quote:
Originally posted by lotabob
I dont think I've ever commented on live feeding before (though dont quote me on that) so I shall share my views on it, its quite simple as i see it, predators eat other animals. Most animals are built extremely well to kill their prey in the quickest way possible with the smallest risk to themselves and snakes are no different. I don't see it as cruel or irresponsible either snakes are built to kill, they have more muscle mass than they would ever need to move or climb, this is purely for the kill, they have a layer of armour with their scales to protect their skin and soft tissues and their teeth face backwards for holding onto moving prey. They do kill their prey quicker than we could in the humane ways used on our frozen food.
I buy frozen mice and rats for my snakes and have absolutely no idea where they come from or the conditions they live in so is that cruel? It might be. Someone breeding and bringing up their own food for live feeding are giving them the very best life possible for a prey item and the snake will see to its death in a very quick way so quality of life and speed of death makes that a far better option for the mouse and I amire them for the time they devote to their animals.
There is also the point of I live feed crickets to my Gecko and my Tarantula, The Gecko kills them very slowly, by crushing their heads, and my Tarantula just holds onto them and punches them full of holes injecting venom but thats not a fast death either, does that make this practice cruel? I don't think it is, my crickets get looked after very well while they are alive. What makes feeding mice so controversial and yet feeding insects totally acceptable?
There will always be the debate of is it right or wrong but if its done right and responsibly then really there are no issues legal or morally. I don't live feed but thats not saying I never will, I have a Royal Python and sometimes situations arise where its required to live feed (this can arise with any snake, it is something to consider before getting one) so if that situation ever arises then I will do what is best for all the animals involved.
If there was a like button, i would be pressing it repeatedly, very sound and good arguement.
Very true, everything you said is spot on.  |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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tk72
Hatchling
United Kingdom
494 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2011 : 09:12:42
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| Well being new to owning got our first yesterday (1st Oct) had a look on youtube to see feeding techniques and there are a few live feedings on there. Would not personally do it as the baby mouse looked and sounded petrified while all the onlookers where cheering. Glad the kids did not see it they would have gone mental. No live feeding not for me, but I feel its a difficult issue as if your snake will only eat live are you going to let it starve? Been told mine feeds ok and fingers crossed it does. |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 19/10/2011 : 21:55:06
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reading the other thread, i still find it amazing that so many people have such an issue with live feeding. A lot of people find live feeding a lot more convenient than feeding defrost, myself included, and most of america, infact, most places other than this country!
It was mentioned on the other thread by someone with less than average knowledge that live was illegal if the snake will take defrost, complete rubbish, its perfectly legal. It is illegal to live feed for entertainment or if it causes undue stress.
There is not a snake out there that is incapable of catching and killing its prey, alive or dead, they all have their own ways of dealing with them.
People either choose to live feed or not, whether needed or not, thats neither right nor wrong, its the way it goes. One thing is fact, it has its time and place. |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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scottishbluebird
it is all my fault
United Kingdom
8403 Posts |
Posted - 20/10/2011 : 00:56:54
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I dont so much have a problem with live feeding, just wouldnt want to do it myself,but if it was general practice to feed live, i wouldnt have a snake.(unless for thatparticular snake had to for some reason) as someone posted it really gets me when its used like sport, just to amuse people.
Then there is the risk of damage to the snake |
     
0.1.0 Corn - Kellogs
1.0.0 Hognose - Storm
0.1.0 Staffy - Lyla
1.0.0 Spaffy(staffy x springer)-Spyro
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0.1.0 Crestie - Fudge. Wish List - Pygmy hedgehog. Tropiocolotes |
Edited by - scottishbluebird on 20/10/2011 01:05:55 |
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tordyjo
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
2036 Posts |
Posted - 20/10/2011 : 07:14:44
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this is not in reply to any particular comments just my feelings and views on the subject
As i said in the other post i think that particular video was 'an example' of how good a hunter and killers corn snakes can be. Is it any different to letting your pet cat out to go and hunt, catch, then play with what they have caught often not killing the animal letting it suffer throughout the process. Yes i am a cat owner and many times have i woken up to mouse or mouse guts at the bottom of the stairs - a mouse that was once alive and i've no doubt suffered a great deal more than one would have if fed to a snake. Its nature and the food chain, as a meat eater i am aware that meat i eat will have come from an animal that has been killed quickly and humanely - as humans we are able to do that, the snake is killing the mouse as quickly and humanely as is possible for the species.
Hope i've explained myself...............
EDIT - i do feed f/t however wouldn't hesitate in using a live mouse if the need ever arose (which is unlikely but can't be discounted) |
 Lilly Crystal Harry
1.2.0 corns, 1.1.0 cats tropical guppies who continually breed
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Edited by - tordyjo on 20/10/2011 07:16:07 |
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