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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
 Posted - 24/05/2010 : 00:06:28
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Live feeding is something of a hot topic with a lot of people, no matter how much you try and convince some people, they wont accept the fact that in some cases it is needed.
I had a royal that would only eat live, she wouldnt even look at a dead mouse, so i have no real choice but feed her live.
She ate all of i think about 3 mice in the year that i had her, all force fed, she weighed about 400g, at well over a year old.
As soon as i started feeding her live, she was a different animal, ferocious feeder. 6 months on and she has more than doubled her weight.
Royals are a notorious case of needing to live feed.
Judith, baby snakes are born with the ability to accurately hit and wrap up/ kill a small mouse, its something thats born into them, a natural instict, saying that though, a lot of young snakes dont even kill their food before eating it, because they dont need to, lets face it, how much damage is a day old pinkie gonna do! As nasty as it sounds, if prey is not going to do any damage, they dont tend to kill it first.
There was a very graphic and actually horrible video on YouTube of a big Burmese eating a young Chick, it ate it live, the chick was a good foot down its gullet and you could still hear it making a noise, that video was totally uncalled for, illegal and just vile, there was no need for it.
I dont think the poster was quite prepared for the onslaught of abuse he got in the comments, there were pages of it, and yes, i contributed.
Live feeding, although it isnt illegal, is still frowned upon by quite a few people, even people in the hobby, which i found surprising because it kinda comes with the territory. My O/H Kate doesnt like live feeding, but its needed sometimes, yes i could sell or give away the snake that needs it, but thats not really solving the problem, you cant say 'let nature take its course' because natures course is live feeding!
I have a young boa that i ttok from a friend because it wasnt feeding, its eaten a weaner rat and a barely small mouse, all in just under a year, she is 2.5 ft, and about 800g, her brother, feeding well, is nearly 5 foot and a couple of kg's.
I feed her live, or i try, she takes when she wants and doesnt when she doesnt, but she has a bad habit of striking a couple of times before actually taking and wrapping up, so the mouse tends to get it a bit before hand, which is not ideal, in fact its not nice at all, but, what do i do? I cant not feed her, i cant kill the mouse first, i cant force it down her neck, i also cant make her take it nicely and kill it quickly, its a rock and a hard place. Although, if she doesnt do the job within a couple of minutes, she loses out and i kill the mouse anyway, and give it to someone else.
Live feeding is not nice, but its a necessary evil sometimes, it has to be done, when a lot of snakes that are prone to bad feeding habits pass through, there are bound to be a couple that are bad feeders.
As for snakes not knowing what to do with a live mouse, am sorry, but you are way off there, sometimes instead of defrosting a lot of mice, if i have the right size available, i will give my younger corns fresh kill, i will kill it first, then give it to the snake, at some point i will make a video of the difference between feeding fresh kill and defrost, it might surprise you.
Defrost has a different smell to it, snakes know that, and they take accordlingly, some snakes just go mental and try and 'kill' it anyway, others just take it and eat it straight away.
I have on of the latter, he just takes defrost and eats it there and then, no messing, if however i give him fresh kill, he goes mental trying to kill it, the difference in the attack and the speed things happen is very apparent.
Snakes are like wild cats in a way, they will take a peice of meat off you and eat it there and then, but you put a live deer or something in there, they stalk and they will kill it, its natures way of making sure they are permanently armed with the equipment and knowledge to make sure they have food.
My cali king escaped a while ago, he disapeared for 3 months, he was barely 3 months old at the time, i have no idea where he went, but after 3 months he turned up, we had moved by then, much to the disgust of the new tenants who were terrified of snakes!
However, he had grown, he had eaten, so not only had he been able to survive the April weather, he had found food too, successfully killed and eaten it.
Snakes are very adaptive, they will quite happily find their own food, and water, they are more than capable to do this. They have the instinct in them all the time, it doesnt go away, and they also know the difference between a fresh kill mouse and defrosted one!
Obviously i keep an eye on the snakes when they have live food, i dont want the snake being harmed by it, so i do get to see first hand the speed of the snake, and how fast the mouse dies, as gruesome as it sounds, i watch the mouse die, the reason being because i dont want the snake to let go too early (never happened so far), i can assure you, when you put a live mouse in there, things happen very very fast, the mouse barely has a chance to register whats going on. I cant tell you how long it takes from the snake striking to the mouse being dead, but from the point the snake starts to strike, you are looking at between 1/10th and 1/100th of a second, maybe faster, from the time the snake strikes, to the point where the mouse is completely wrapped up is that again, its so fast its almost scary! the mouse is dead within about 5 to 10 seconds.
For a mouse to die in that space of time, it cant be suffocation, their rib cage is so weak that the snake actaully inhibits the hearts ability to beat, so it actaully dies of oxygen starvation, which is blackout in a very short space of time, no time for anything!
Sorry i have rambled on a bit, its something that i have come across quite a bit in the last year or so!
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Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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Mouse
Yearling
United Kingdom
958 Posts |
Posted - 24/05/2010 : 10:48:47
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I was going to say neutral, and I hope I never have to live feed. I'm now going to say neutral, and if ever there is an issue and I need to live feed, I'm kidnapping Mike  |
 
1.0.0 - Gobo - Snow Corn (RIP)
0.1.0 - Sprockett - Normal/hypo/het snow Corn
2.0.0 Anery Hatchlings
0.1.0 Amel Hatchling
0.1.0 Normal Hatchling
*Location - Southampton, UK*
http://www.weneedcake.co.uk |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 24/05/2010 : 10:57:04
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If you ever have to feed your corns live then there is something very wrong, and i am kidnapping the snakes!!!! lol
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Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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Edited by - mikerichards on 24/05/2010 10:58:51 |
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Kehhlyr
ǝʞɐɔ sǝʌoן
United Kingdom
8173 Posts |
Posted - 26/05/2010 : 01:21:39
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Here's a couple piccys of the damage that was caused when someone tried to live feed a Boa Constrictor.
Now as most people who have owned or do own a Boa can tell you is that these are incredibly strong snakes, imagine what potentially a rat or mouse could do to a cornsnake.
These Images are copyrighted to Denise and Philip Frain of the Reptile Rescue Den, and are used with permission.
Click the images to bring you to their website with the full story and more images, please be aware that some of the images may not be totally suitable for those of a sensitive nature or possibly some children. |
-=Kehhlyr - The Resident Loon
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 26/05/2010 : 10:00:46
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| Thats a very sad story, i cant imagine how the guy felt, thinking he was doing the right thing, and ending up in that situation. |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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n/a
deleted
42 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2010 : 19:51:47
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its a tough one, corn snakes are equipped with the tools to kill their prey, but i have to say if i have a choice to feed pre-killed mice/rats then that would be it (which is what i feed him), purely so the snake is not harmed.
However if live feeding was required, i would have no qualms. |
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flyinglime
Snake Mite
United Kingdom
16 Posts |
Posted - 13/06/2010 : 00:49:43
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I have never fed my snake live pray, and to be honest, probably won't. It's not that I have any issues with the whole 'oh no it's living and it's gonna die' thing, because, in the wild, snakes, and a lot of other animals, eat food they have freshly caught themselves. Snakes are designed to kill their prey - whether they are venomous or constrictors. It's just that, much as I love my little snake, she's not too clever. She's been living in captivity all her life, and much as I'm sure she thinks that when I dangle the mouse over her head and she pounces and wraps herself around it she's killing it, she's not. It's already dead love. I'd be more worried about what the mouse might do to her if things got out of hand. But she is bright enough to know that when she comes across a mouse lying in her viv (that I've accidentally dropped) that it's already dead and she just needs to eat it. Although it will take her a little while to find it, even if she's right on top of it.
Also, think how much of a pain it would be to have to keep the mice alive too - space, money, cleaning etc - all for them to get eaten. Frozen ones are very convenient, and she has never complained. I have also found that people's curiosity is satisfied by a defrosted mouse, so would not feel the need to have a live one for shoe. It just sometimes freaks people out that they're in the top drawer of my freezer where I keep the ice cubes...
One of the most amazings clip on a David Attenborough program I ever saw was of an anaconda that had waited in a watering hole for something like three weeks after it hadn't eaten for two months eating a springbock. I mean, that thing had horns! Snakes are amazing, imagine trying to eat one of those without any hands... |
0.1.0 amelanistic motley corn |
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flyinglime
Snake Mite
United Kingdom
16 Posts |
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lee2308
The Corn Snake Moderator
United Kingdom
3348 Posts |
Posted - 13/06/2010 : 13:29:51
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I have had to resort to live feeding,be it only pinkies for a rosy boa i had and it had the desired affect immediatly i would definatly think twice about using rats after taking this pic last year and would definatly never leave them unattended,just look at the size of those teeth.
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hillzi
The Lost boy.
United Kingdom
3984 Posts |
Posted - 13/06/2010 : 14:39:00
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That video you are refering to Mike is by a fellow by 'Jonah Vore' who is sick himself, as his name means something along the lines of he has a fetish to watching snakes kill and eat live food, and other animals for that matter, and he gets a sick kick out of it..
See the video on here - http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=63718297
It's not of the snake eating the chick but shows a desciption of what
'voraphelia'
THE VIDEO SHOWS COMMENT'S OF JONAH'S VIDEO WHICH FEATURE OBSENCE LANGUAGE.
On live feeding; yes I do agree that is a good idea, but within reason.
IF your'e snake is NOT feeding live, I don't beleive you should transfer to live just because of interested "If it aint broken don't try to fix it".
Also, IF your snake is NOT feeding and you have tried other methods than yes live IS acceptable IF you do not broadcast it, and DO NOT leave the snake alone, yes natural instinct to wrap to around the mouse and the snake is likely to kill it, but just in case (as shown in the boa pictures)
Phil, you know the background on that boa? I was reading on RFUK that the boa was kept poorly prior to being fed live, so the snake couldn't fight back against the rat/mouse.
those are my opinions. |
Edited by - hillzi on 13/06/2010 14:43:33 |
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n/a
deleted
80 Posts |
Posted - 13/06/2010 : 19:16:52
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| I am going back a good 21 years now but I used to have a royal python (ball python) and the only thing that he would eat was live rats. I did try him on frozen, thawed rats but there was no interest there. I did find it interesting the first time I put the rat in with him but as soon as he grabed it and I heard the poor little thing squeak in shock I couldnt watch after that so I started putting the rat in and leaving the room. I have now got a corn which I have had for a couple of months and happy to say that he has frozen,thawed mice. I would never buy a snake that is on live food not matter how nice it was or how much I wanted it. If it is not illegal to feed live pray then it should be. Just my opinion. x |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 13/06/2010 : 22:20:32
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Its not illegal to feed live because the life of another animal that would naturally feed on live animals is put at risk.
Feeding live for the sake of it is illegal, as is doing it for show, entertainment.
Beleive it or not, there are groups who are fighting for all animals to be fed a natural diet, this includes live prey, and not just snakes either.
However, they are all fruit loops and wont get very far, but they are there!
Corns are highly unlikely to ever need to be fed live as they are very hardy tough little creatures, whereas, something like a royal is very nervy, and can lose the will for defrost.
Royals also have the thermoreceptive pits along their upper lip, so can 'see' the heat given off by their prey, so feeding cold defrost doesnt do anything for them!
Defrost also smells different, it doesnt smell alive, quite often they can smell funny with the gases used to kill them, some snakes dont like that.
Even i can smell the difference between defrost and fresh kill.
Occasionally i feed fresh kill to my corns, and i know damn well they know the difference, their reaction to it is mental, they go crazy with it, whereas they are not so fussed about defrost.
At some point i will make a little home video of the differences between fresh kill and defrost. |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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n/a
deleted
80 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2010 : 21:17:55
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| How do you get fresh killed Mikerichards??? I only ask as it sounds as if this could be better for the corns health wise or am I slithering up the wrong tree. |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2010 : 22:58:50
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I breed my own mice, its cheaper for me in the long run as they only cost about 3 quid a month to feed, and i usually get about 60 or 70 babies at a time. Although, one batch hasnt given me any babies for a long time now, so they are going to the amel!
The worst bits of keeping mice is the initial cost, for the lab cages, and the smell, they can stink if not kept on top of.
Killing them is easy once you get over the initial feeling of it, i just hold by the tail and swing, dead in less than a second, works every time, although i do it twice to be sure! |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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Mouse
Yearling
United Kingdom
958 Posts |
Posted - 15/06/2010 : 09:16:07
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Yeah! And where would you keep them?!!! hehehehe.
We would end up with a kidnapping loop....
quote:
Originally posted by mikerichards
If you ever have to feed your corns live then there is something very wrong, and i am kidnapping the snakes!!!! lol
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1.0.0 - Gobo - Snow Corn (RIP)
0.1.0 - Sprockett - Normal/hypo/het snow Corn
2.0.0 Anery Hatchlings
0.1.0 Amel Hatchling
0.1.0 Normal Hatchling
*Location - Southampton, UK*
http://www.weneedcake.co.uk |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 15/06/2010 : 12:53:51
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| I think i can make some space! although everything is full at the moment! and about to get fuller in the next week or so! |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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elament
Yearling
United Kingdom
942 Posts |
Posted - 23/06/2010 : 01:01:49
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| I have read this post with interest. Having done that I have to say in principle where an animal is dependent on live food to survive then it is acceptable. I still do not agree with it being done purely for entertainment. Like I have said on a previous thread if you want to watch a snake eat a live animal turn on the natgeo wild channel. Personally I couldnt do it and if I ever found myself in that situation I would have to give the animal up to someone that could do it for the survival of the animal. I have learned to detatch myself to a degree when feeding my two but that is the nature of the beast but I do not think I could detatch myself that much. |
1.1.0 Amel Corns Colin and Xena
1.0.0 Dog Talan
1.1.0 Cats Wotsit and Willow
1.0.0 Ferret Chaos
Location: Lowestoft Suffolk |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 23/06/2010 : 06:44:12
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At the end of the day, live feeding for entertainment is illegal, so you shouldn't be doing it anyway, so you probably wouldn't find yourself doing it. I only have one snake that may eat live (eventually) or she may die, I don't know yet.
All my food is killed before I feed, mostly its fresh enough to still be twitching when fed.
That said, there is always going to be someone who will feed live because they want to, or because they find it funny and entertaining, that's never going to be different.
If you know that someone is doing it, and you know there is no need for it, then you can report it, its not a way to make friends though, or keep them! |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2010 : 15:23:30
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In response to a question on another thread, feeding live is very easy, just put the mouse in with the snake, 9 times out of ten, the mouse disappears very quickly, and there can be no damage done to the snake, as for the mouse, i cant imagine its gonna be overly chuffed about its position in the food chain, but such is life, they are food animals, they know that, hence why they produce so many young, why they have pretty much 360 degree vision, and are fast as you like.
The speed in which the snake kills is incredible, its so fast, mostly no more than 10 seconds, and i would imagine that for half that its not concious, it is very quick. Siffering wise, yeah, i have no doubt they suffer a small amount, mostly when things die, especially when killed by another animal, there is suffering involved, just look at how leopards etc kill antelope, not very nice.
Snakes killing mice is very quick, so i think the suffering in minimised, not only that, but they suffer for a very short time anyway.
The worst thing is where the snake will not kill its food first, and just eats it live, thats distressing, even i dont like that, and i am a veteran killer of most thing edible, but, such is life, why should a snake expend energy kiling something if it cannot o any harm to snake anyway???? thats natures thinking!
Hope that answers your Q!! |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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chrish
Hatchling
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 19/09/2010 : 12:07:08
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It may not be in quite the same league but i kept red-bellied pirahanas (yep they're the nasty ones) for years and fed them live goldfish. The only reason for that was the necessity though, they simply wouldnt eat anything that wasn't alive.
With regards to snakes, personally i dont have a problem with live feeding...i wouldnt do it unless it was a necessity mind, im happy mine eats frozen/thawed!
They dont seem to have a problem with it over in the states though, theres enough videos on youtube of rabbits and guinea pigs being eaten!
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0.0.1 Bloodred
0.1.0 Snow |
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