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Kehhlyr
ǝʞɐɔ sǝʌoן
United Kingdom
8173 Posts |
 Posted - 19/05/2010 : 21:26:57
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This is always a nice hot topic, and I thought it'd be interesting to start it again seeing as we have some new 'faces' that might find the discussions interesting.
Please remember that it's not an opportunity to vent directly at people, but likewise sensible opinions/thoughts are welcomed.
quote:
Originally posted by matty18714
Live feeding is a grey area in the law. It is perfectly legal to live feed in the UK aslong as you arnt doing it to cause deliberate suffering or for entertainment. I have also heared that you should show that you have tried all other appropriate measures to feed the snake, but I think thats rubbish myself, though I havent checked.
I've been told that live feeding for entertainment or because you want 'to see what it's like' IS illegal as it's then classed as being cruel to the animal (both snake and the mice).
Live feeding for the survival of a snake is NOT illegal.
The reason it's a grey area is exactly as Matty said, it's very hard to prove you've exhausted all other options first.
I've said it before hand (and shall say it again) that in some ways look at it like dog fighting;
Dogs that have a scrap in the field while on walkies is just 2 dogs fighting, nothing wrong with that.
Dogs that are organised to fight purely so that people can watch is illegal.
See what I mean there.
Discuss. 
/quick edit
Remember that the laws for live feeding as stated above are only the UK laws.
Other countries (north america etc) have always seemed to live feed, so therefore it's not frowned upon as it is over here, so please remember that as well. |
-=Kehhlyr - The Resident Loon
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Edited by - Kehhlyr on 19/05/2010 21:30:08 |
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a33272
our battery charger
United Kingdom
3063 Posts |
Posted - 19/05/2010 : 21:37:43
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| personally i have never live fed yet as both mine eat well most of the time but IF it came to the point where one of them hadnt eaten for months had lost a large anount of weight and all other means had been tryed and i could get hold of a live mouse or rat from a good known source then yes it would be tryed |
    
0.1.0 creamsicle corn-Marmalade
1.0.0 jungle carpet python-Bumble
1.0.0 corn Casper
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DannyBrown91
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
3070 Posts |
Posted - 19/05/2010 : 21:49:54
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quote:
Originally posted by a33272
personally i have never live fed yet as both mine eat well most of the time but IF it came to the point where one of them hadnt eaten for months had lost a large anount of weight and all other means had been tryed and i could get hold of a live mouse or rat from a good known source then yes it would be tryed
I'm the same, all of mine feed well on defrost/thawed mice so i have never even thought about live feeding. But IF my snake wasn't feeding and i had tried everything else without success and the life of my snake was on the line then yes i would consider live feeding.
But only under them circumstances. |
0.0.1 Ghost Corn - Casper
0.0.1 Diffused Corn - Reggie
0.0.1 Amel Corn - Candy A.K.A Baby
1.0 Commom BCI - Rocky
0.1 Japanese Akita - Sasha
Location: Liverpool |
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n/a
deleted
243 Posts |
Posted - 19/05/2010 : 21:55:30
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i dont agree with live feeding and would never have the heart to do it. i would like to keep pet mice at some stage and couldnt watch an animal die, any animal.
if it came to a point where either of my snakes were not feeding, losing weight and live feeding was the only option i could not personally watch it so i'd be at a lose end |
 
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matty18714
The Count of Corniness
United Kingdom
4428 Posts |
Posted - 19/05/2010 : 22:07:38
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Heres something you may find interetsing. This document outlines the standards that Zoos should achieve. At the moment im not sure if this is a UK document, if someone knows how to find out that would be great.
http://www.wildlifeinformation.org/Subdirectories_for_Search2/sampleel/standards_of_zoo_practice/Section2.htm
This is a copy of point "1.6":
Although the Protection of Animals Acts 1911 to 1964 do not prohibit the feeding of animals with live prey, the live feeding of vertebrate prey should be avoided save in exceptional circumstances, and then only under veterinary advice. Where any live prey must be used, its welfare must be considered as well as any potential injury which might be caused to the predator.
So this suggests that no unnecessary suffering must be caused to the prey, and that the potential damage to the snake must be considered (e.g maybe feeding live mice instead of rats to reduce the possible damage caused). It also says that live feeding must first be approved by a vet, otherwise it would be illegal (and there would be no way you could deny that).
However, these are the standards that must be met by zoos, and not the private keeper, so i am not sure how relevent this will be. |
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Sta~ple
qeeun speler
United Kingdom
6129 Posts |
Posted - 19/05/2010 : 22:24:56
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I have often wondered what Venom would do with his food alive, would he ignore it or would he just go for it? I guess I just have to assume that he would react in the same way in which he does when I wiggle his food which is quite viscously. I know that I could never feed any of mine love food, I hate mice but knowing that I am directly responsible for a death no matter now small would upset me specially since they all eat frozen food. I wouldn't be able to watch at all so the only way my snakes would ever eat live food is if they haven't eaten for months and months and I took them to a vet or a pet shop so that they could do it and supervise.
I think feeding live food for entertainment is cruel on the snake and the prey, the snake could get horribly injured, there are so many sad photos of royal pythons that have died or had to be put to sleep because of feisty prey. It's so bad when the prey is a pinky but sometimes once the snake has the feeling for live food, they don't want to go back to frozen and they need bigger food, then it becomes a problem. I don't see why people do it surely the cost of live mice is more unless you breed them and doesn't the potential vet bills scare people?
Surely a vet would probably end up force/assist feeding a snake before giving it live? |
  
A very special super, duper thanks for K :3 |
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matty18714
The Count of Corniness
United Kingdom
4428 Posts |
Posted - 19/05/2010 : 22:30:11
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There are many reasons people would do it such as entertainment or a last resort. The vets bills arnt really going to be considered by someone doing it for entertainment.
Just because a snake is being force fed, doesnt mean it will put on weight and become healthy again. So then if your doing it as a last resort, the potential vets bills wont be a big factor (and of course it should be monitored at all times to lower the risk of injury). |
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Kehhlyr
ǝʞɐɔ sǝʌoן
United Kingdom
8173 Posts |
Posted - 19/05/2010 : 22:33:46
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That IS a UK document Matty, and is valid for 'zoo standards'.
Obviously there are things that also need to be considered as well, as another member recently stated that they normally feed fresh-killed, and the subject of humane killing has come up before so thought I'd add this in, as fresh-killed is something that can be often overlooked.
As daft as it sounds how much nicer does fresh cooked bread smell to us in comparison to that cheap loaf of hovis?
Dunno if it'd be the same with snakes, but the idea/principle could be similar.
The Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 (Appropriate Methods of Humane Killing) Order 1996
What is interesting is the different ways to possibly humanely dispatch a mouse/rat to be able to give a nice fresh-killed prey item as well.
I believe that fresh-killed prey item would give the same response as a live feed.
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-=Kehhlyr - The Resident Loon
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LittleMick
Yearling
United Kingdom
563 Posts |
Posted - 19/05/2010 : 23:26:07
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I was going to post a similar post on the reptilian about how humane we are but you beat me to it, lol.
I not sure really where I stand on this, I have done rabbit hunting with my dad when I was a kid, which included the despatch of the rabbits, via the dislocating the neck method. I have also went trout fishing and obviously despatched the fish in a similar manner. Both of these activities were for the intened purpose of eating them, would I do this now? I don't think so as the food I need I can get from a shop, but would I kill as a survivl method, yes, I think alot of people would. And the same goes for my animals, I would not feed live if it is uneccessary, except inverts, as my Leo won't touch dead prey.
What I find interesting though, from the documents you have already put up, and the quote,
quote:
1.6 Although the Protection of Animals Acts 1911 to 1964 do not prohibit the
feeding of animals with live prey, the live feeding of vertebrate prey should be
avoided save in exceptional circumstances, and then only under veterinary
So the above instruction SUGGETS live feeeding is ok, but live inverts are not. But yet I have seen other documents pointed out via this site that all live feeding is illegal except if the animals life depends on it.
MATTY
Here's is another link for Zoo standards
http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/zoos/standards.htm
Alot of the searches and links seem to point to the DEFRA website.
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0.4.0 Gerbils (Gemini, Pica, Gerty and Sasha)
0.1.0 Leopard Gecko (Elle)
1.0.0 Carolina Corn Snake(Elijah)
0.0.1 Emperor/Imperial Scorpion (Abbi)
2.0.0 Roborovski Dwarf Hamsters (Micro & Chippy)
Tropical fish - 6 Platys.6 Mollies.9 Glowlight Tetra.4 Pearl Gouramis.4 Apple Snails.1 Tiger Plec.2 Common Bristlenose Plecs and lots of babies. |
Edited by - LittleMick on 19/05/2010 23:26:30 |
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Kehhlyr
ǝʞɐɔ sǝʌoן
United Kingdom
8173 Posts |
Posted - 19/05/2010 : 23:59:42
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Live inverts are things like crix, snails, beetles, spiders etc.
Inverts (invertebrates) are animals with no backbone, vertebrate prey have backbones.
Think you got those a bit mixed up then LittleMick.  |
-=Kehhlyr - The Resident Loon
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Blackecho
The Corn Snake Admin
United Kingdom
4379 Posts |
Posted - 20/05/2010 : 06:39:41
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As long as you are feeding for the snake and not the entertainment it is not illegal, you do not have to prove anything, it is still (despite suggestions from pressure groups) the owner's choice.
I know someone who investigated the possibility of comparing growth of live-fed snakes compared to f/t-fed snakes over a year for a Master's thesis and had it agreed. |
www.theroyalpython.co.uk/forum
Location: Rotherham
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KITTYCAT
Hatchling
United Kingdom
492 Posts |
Posted - 20/05/2010 : 07:49:33
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| personally i couldnt use live prey i think it is cruel it took me long enough to get over looking at the wee frozen mice ( im a bit soft that way) im a great believer in you wont miss what you've never had ( if your snake has never had a live feed b4 then dont do it) |
1.0.0 carolina corn (herbie)
0.1.0 snow corn (casper)
0.0.1 anery motley corn(diesel)
0.0.1 calafornia banded king snake (ozzy)
0.1.0 royal python (pandora)
0.0.1 boa constrictor (bullet)
1.0.0 weinmaraner (zac)
1.0.0 staffy (zeus)
1.1.0 cats (sophie n pepe)
0.0.1 fish (fish)
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Gaz_1989
Yearling
United Kingdom
931 Posts |
Posted - 20/05/2010 : 08:41:52
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I am completely NEUTRAL to the idea. Im not for it, nor against it.
I personally have not got the time, nor reason for doing it. It would be more expensive, it would be more time consuming. I like getting my frozen mouse out of the freezer, defrosting and feeding! Simple.
If i had a snake that would not feed on pre-killed, then of course i would feed live.
If someone believes that it is more natural to feed live, then i would not criricise them for this. My only argument is that keeping a snake in a viv is not really natural. So it kind of contradicts.
Doing it for the entertainment value could be seen as 'sick' by some. But i used to go hunting for sport, and alot of people see that as sick, each to there own though surely?
Interesting topic non the less.
Gaz
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0.0.1 CB15 Amel Corn - Billy
1.0.0 CB16 Brazilian Rainbow Boa - Hunter |
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a33272
our battery charger
United Kingdom
3063 Posts |
Posted - 20/05/2010 : 10:03:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Kehhlyr
Obviously there are things that also need to be considered as well, as another member recently stated that they normally feed fresh-killed, and the subject of humane killing has come up before so thought I'd add this in, as fresh-killed is something that can be often overlooked.
As daft as it sounds how much nicer does fresh cooked bread smell to us in comparison to that cheap loaf of hovis?
Dunno if it'd be the same with snakes, but the idea/principle could be similar.
I believe that fresh-killed prey item would give the same response as a live feed.
i agree with this, and i think the smell and taste is a big issue with snakes my JCP is such a fussy easter, he refuses to take rats even when they are scented with mouse ive even tryed feeding it in as he is taking the last bit of a mouse but he seams to know its not mouse and spits it back out.
he even refuses mouse sometimes like last night i went and got some jumbos yesterday so i knew the 2 he was having were same age and from same supplier etc i spent 10 mins trying to get him to eat the first and gave up so offered him the second one and he struck it straight away yet offered him the first one again and he still toke 5 mins before he decided to lazyly yawn and take it gently
so yeah i think there is something in the fresh/frozen theaory |
0.1.0 creamsicle corn-Marmalade
1.0.0 jungle carpet python-Bumble
1.0.0 corn Casper
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Blackecho
The Corn Snake Admin
United Kingdom
4379 Posts |
Posted - 20/05/2010 : 10:51:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Gaz_1989
I am completely NEUTRAL to the idea. Im not for it, nor against it.
I personally have not got the time, nor reason for doing it. It would be more expensive, it would be more time consuming. I like getting my frozen mouse out of the freezer, defrosting and feeding! Simple.
If i had a snake that would not feed on pre-killed, then of course i would feed live.
If someone believes that it is more natural to feed live, then i would not criricise them for this. My only argument is that keeping a snake in a viv is not really natural. So it kind of contradicts.
Doing it for the entertainment value could be seen as 'sick' by some. But i used to go hunting for sport, and alot of people see that as sick, each to there own though surely?
Interesting topic non the less.
Gaz
Nicely put. |
www.theroyalpython.co.uk/forum
Location: Rotherham
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Lilpunk
Yearling
512 Posts |
Posted - 20/05/2010 : 17:18:57
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I am neutral too - depending on circumstances.
Good idea for a topic |
0.0.1 Carolina corn - (renamed) Lumos.
2.0.0 Shetlands - Winston & Rupert.
1.3.0 Guinea pigs - Coffee, Nutkin, Rosemary & Thyme.
0.1.0 Yorkshire Terrier - Poppy. |
Edited by - Lilpunk on 20/05/2010 17:20:46 |
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Tatsie-j
Hatchling
United Kingdom
209 Posts |
Posted - 20/05/2010 : 21:17:56
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| I couldnt live feed personally.. ive cried in the past 4 accidently treading on a snail... lol but i see the point of live feeding if the snake really wont feed! very interesting subject tho.. i have a lot of friends who think its evil keeping snakes coz they eat frozen mice! but half of them have cats n cats r real killers i have 2 myself n they bring half dead mice in the garden all the time suppose its a natural thing 2 kill and eat but def not 4 entertainment values!! |
Anery - Bailey
Amel- Coraline
Normal - Zebedee
Butter Motley - Kitrino
Cats - Danny & Jasper
Location : Lancing, West Sussex |
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LittleMick
Yearling
United Kingdom
563 Posts |
Posted - 21/05/2010 : 01:43:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Kehhlyr
Live inverts are things like crix, snails, beetles, spiders etc.
Inverts (invertebrates) are animals with no backbone, vertebrate prey have backbones.
Think you got those a bit mixed up then LittleMick.
Lol, just reread what I wrote, what a plum (me that is), I do actually know the difference between he 2, oh, diregard my post then, lol. I'll go back to TR, lol.
I think though there are many levels of what could be classed as cruel, I mean if you are say, hunting for food, I'd say thats natural, if you are hunting just for fun, I wouldn't say it's cruel but it is unnecessary. Same with fishing, if you are game fishing and eating the catch then ok, but if caorse fishing to throw the fish back, what's the point? So that goes the same for live feeding herps, so then the question all just boils down to if either predator or prey are suffering in the mean time.
But then when I watch docmentaries, and I see the pack of Lions going after a Gazelle or something, I feel really gutted for the Gazelle as it doesn't die staright away, but then I feel great for the Lions and they get to live another day.It's just all part of the food chain. |
0.4.0 Gerbils (Gemini, Pica, Gerty and Sasha)
0.1.0 Leopard Gecko (Elle)
1.0.0 Carolina Corn Snake(Elijah)
0.0.1 Emperor/Imperial Scorpion (Abbi)
2.0.0 Roborovski Dwarf Hamsters (Micro & Chippy)
Tropical fish - 6 Platys.6 Mollies.9 Glowlight Tetra.4 Pearl Gouramis.4 Apple Snails.1 Tiger Plec.2 Common Bristlenose Plecs and lots of babies. |
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Kellog
the nice one
United Kingdom
7308 Posts |
Posted - 21/05/2010 : 03:07:40
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Was such a good idea to bring this topic back to life Kehhlyr, as I know it has been discussed in the past.
This is only my personal feeling and opinion. I do think it is wrong to feed a captive born and bred snake live food purely for the sake of entertainment....these are snakes that have never lived in the wild, live in unnatural environments (no matter how much we try to make them natural) and, although they may have some hunter instinct born into them, have been used to feeding on prey that doesnt fight back.
The thought of tossing a live mouse in with Kellog 'just to see what happens' sickens me. He may very well get hurt as he would not have learnt from a young age what to do, and because he hasnt learnt the correct killing technique then it is probable that the death of the mouse may be long and painful - not something I want to inflict.
In the wild snakes are forced to hunt live prey from birth, as I have said they may have that in-born natural instinct but how do we know how much is actually learnt behaviour over the years as they move from tiny prey (like our pinkies) to the larger prey (like our jumbos). To suddenly put a snake who had never come across prey that breathed before in with a jumbo mouse just scares me.
Now, if I was in the position of having to do a live feed as a last resort because my snake was dying from malnutrition and refusing to eat....then I would risk it, but only with help from someone who could intervene if there was a concern about the snake getting hurt.
I am like Mick when I watch wildlife programmes and have seen kills in the wild - I feel sorry for the prey but I also know that it is the natural cycle of life in the wild - the lion needs to catch and kill the gazelle to live. Our snakes do not need to catch and kill a mouse to live, they can be fed prey that has already been killed....so why do something that is unnecessary and may cause damage to your snake and may be a cruel death for the mouse?
Again, my own personal thoughts and opinion....
xxx
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gingerpony
Queen Bee
United Kingdom
10455 Posts |
Posted - 23/05/2010 : 09:20:04
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ok i'll throw in some (?live) food for thought............
for newer members who were unaware, i DO live-feed one of my boas
a bit on his background though:
i've had this particular boa for about 18 months now, with his previous owner he ate 4 times in the year he owned him. 4 times in a whole year. for an adult boa this would be less of an issue but he was only about 3ft long despite being about 6 years old (expected adult size of this particular species is 6-8ft) and was literally skin and bone, you could feel every rib as he moved through your hands.
having failed with assist- and force-feeding (the stress on snake and owner can be immense with such a stubborn snake!!) i finally resorted to live and within a few months got him onto f/t rat weaners
unfortunately after last winter i've had to start him on live again and am in the process of converting him back onto f/t.... |
cornsnakes, ratsnakes, bullsnakes, boas and day geckos
Location:Leeds/York/Selby area |
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LittleMick
Yearling
United Kingdom
563 Posts |
Posted - 23/05/2010 : 15:21:48
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But you have to GP or poor Boa will look like a pitched up tent  and we can't have that.
I think if it is not necessary, it's like "Do I go to the field for the cow? Or do I go to Burger King?".
If I said live feeding was cruel, I would have to call myself a hypocrit, because I could say that keeping a snake in a small emclosure is cruel.
In either case I think you have to ask yourself, "Are you doing it for your benefit? Or the snakes?"
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0.4.0 Gerbils (Gemini, Pica, Gerty and Sasha)
0.1.0 Leopard Gecko (Elle)
1.0.0 Carolina Corn Snake(Elijah)
0.0.1 Emperor/Imperial Scorpion (Abbi)
2.0.0 Roborovski Dwarf Hamsters (Micro & Chippy)
Tropical fish - 6 Platys.6 Mollies.9 Glowlight Tetra.4 Pearl Gouramis.4 Apple Snails.1 Tiger Plec.2 Common Bristlenose Plecs and lots of babies. |
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