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tehbunneh
Hatchling
United Kingdom
390 Posts |
 Posted - 28/10/2010 : 11:11:57
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Hey guys, just wanted some reassurance here over Widget, the little hypo pewter motley I got last weekend.
He seems a very happy little snake a lot of the time, however, he seems to have four pretty large, very visable 'kinks' in the middle-upper area of his back. Two seem to be pretty severe, and then there are two on the outer edges of these larger ones. To me, and also to my mum who was the one that mentioned it first, its seems like he's been trapped, either as a youngster, or more recently, within a corner of one of these plastic boxes that many of the snakes were being sold in at PRAS. He also seems very nervous of going into and coming out of the box (ie. he bit me the first time I took a look at him, and then when I tried to put him back, he slithered up into the crook of my arm and did this repeatedly, not wanting to go back in!)
I was told by the lass that kinks are a genetic thing, but just the way he reacts to his box, as well as his seeming 'stiffness' when first coming out of the box, I'm wondering if it was possibly an accident that trapped his back in the closing lid? I'm going to try and get a photo of him today to show you all, so you can perhaps make a better opinion of him. Once out, he's perfectly friendly, which leads me to believe it could have been a possible accident involving him and the lid of his sale box! |
EMZ - WORCESTER, UK
3.2.0 Corn Snakes
Conan (CB09 Carolina); Ripley (CB09 Ghost); Widget (CB09 Hypo Pewter); Dexter (CB10 Granite); Boa'tata (CB10 Bloodred)
0.1.0 Taiwanese Beauty
Taiki (CB11)
1.0.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake
Tanis (CB10)
0.0.1 Amazon Tree Boa
Winston (CB??) |
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FiestaSTLou
Yearling
United Kingdom
556 Posts |
Posted - 28/10/2010 : 12:39:51
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| ouch! that sounds nasty hun if thats what happened :( |
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Kehhlyr
ǝʞɐɔ sǝʌoן
United Kingdom
8173 Posts |
Posted - 28/10/2010 : 13:00:41
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| Ouf of curiosity did the person you get him off have 'phibs for sale as well?? |
-=Kehhlyr - The Resident Loon
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gingerpony
Queen Bee
United Kingdom
10455 Posts |
Posted - 28/10/2010 : 16:08:18
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kinks can be genetic, congenital (born with the defect, possibly due to incubation temps) or acquired due to accident or illness.
IMO they should never be used for breeding but as a pet you do have to assess their quality of life. most of the behaviour you've described just sounds like typical hatchie stuff but the stiffness would be my concern too............ |
cornsnakes, ratsnakes, bullsnakes, boas and day geckos
Location:Leeds/York/Selby area |
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tehbunneh
Hatchling
United Kingdom
390 Posts |
Posted - 28/10/2010 : 17:32:30
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He's an '09, and in comparison to my other '09, and also the June '10 noodle I have, he is the most flighty and seemingly scared of the box that he was given to me in. He seems perfectly happy, as I said; doesn't react badly to the kinks being touched or stroked, but the two main ones are just so large and seemingly misaligned, its hard to say that they are just congenital defects, especially when you consider his reaction to the box. The stiffness passes once he starts moving, and he's kind of nervous or sensitive perhaps, as though due to his inability to be a breeder, he's kind of been left to his own devices, not properly socialised or perhaps a little sore for the first little while. I'm thinking of looking for an exotic vet in the Worcester area, to get him checked and possibly x-rayed, but it doesn't seem to affect him greatly. He's to be fed on Sunday, so I guess I will see then if he has any issues with eating. The lady that sold him said there weren't any issues, but I was given no records with him, only told he fed on Tuesday >.<''
I... am not entirely sure what 'phibs are K, but it was, as you walk in the door, the faaaaaaaaaaaaaar back right corner, where the 'Genetic Gems' table was with the Burmese and Royal Pythons and Rainbow Boas were, opposite the table that was selling cleaning products. The woman didn't seem overly bothered about him when I spoke to her, and seemed happy to be getting rid of him, but hey, that could just be a clouded judgement by the fact he seems to have had an accident. I feel with some time and handling, he'll be a gorgeously tempered little snake, and even if not, I feel good knowing that I may be giving him a good 'pet' life, not just saying 'ahh, well, he's no good for breeding'. It has never been my intention to breed, so I'm more then happy for that to be the case! I just want to be reassured that I'm not just causing him harm by keeping him as a pet that I will handle and the like. I've taken some pictures now, so soon as I upload them to this computer, I'll share them with you. |
EMZ - WORCESTER, UK
3.2.0 Corn Snakes
Conan (CB09 Carolina); Ripley (CB09 Ghost); Widget (CB09 Hypo Pewter); Dexter (CB10 Granite); Boa'tata (CB10 Bloodred)
0.1.0 Taiwanese Beauty
Taiki (CB11)
1.0.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake
Tanis (CB10)
0.0.1 Amazon Tree Boa
Winston (CB??) |
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tehbunneh
Hatchling
United Kingdom
390 Posts |
Posted - 28/10/2010 : 18:04:54
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Got the pictures for you here guys! Only the best ones of his kinks. He's a nippy little thing, and when he did sit still, me mum was the one that was shaking, lol!
I have to say, these photos don't quite show HOW large the kinks are, but hey, he was wriggling all over, so its to be expected I guess! They are pretty prominent, so yeah, any ideas on whether these could well have been caused by an accident, or be congential, and whether its cruel for me to be keeping him as a pet, considering what I've said? He is the most gorgeous little fella, so inquisitive, its just the first little time after being taken out of the box that he seems to need time to unravel and loosen his kinks so he can move freely. |
EMZ - WORCESTER, UK
3.2.0 Corn Snakes
Conan (CB09 Carolina); Ripley (CB09 Ghost); Widget (CB09 Hypo Pewter); Dexter (CB10 Granite); Boa'tata (CB10 Bloodred)
0.1.0 Taiwanese Beauty
Taiki (CB11)
1.0.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake
Tanis (CB10)
0.0.1 Amazon Tree Boa
Winston (CB??) |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 28/10/2010 : 18:58:28
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| they are not from any kind of accident with a tub, they are birth defects. Its not something that is gonna heal or go away, usually snakes with defects as severe as those dont survive. TO be honest, no dealer or breeder should have sold that to you, give maybe, but if money changed hands and you were not told that the snake was deformed from birth then thats bad. Who did you buy it from?? |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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Sta~ple
qeeun speler
United Kingdom
6129 Posts |
Posted - 28/10/2010 : 20:25:21
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| Did you see the kinks before you bought? Where did you get him from? Them being that bad, I wouldn't have bought and I'd take him back. I don' know how they even managed to get your money :/ |
   
A very special super, duper thanks for K :3 |
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Kehhlyr
ǝʞɐɔ sǝʌoן
United Kingdom
8173 Posts |
Posted - 28/10/2010 : 20:59:30
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Was there a bloke at the table as well, with a bit of a scruffy beard job going on??
I ask because funnily enough I saw the chap that I bought rescued Hissle off last year, he has a multitude of REALLY bad kinks as well. |
-=Kehhlyr - The Resident Loon
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Tiffany-x
Sub Adult
United Kingdom
1189 Posts |
Posted - 28/10/2010 : 22:05:53
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I dont mean to be rude but if this is the same person/people they shouldnt be allowed to even keep snakes in my opinion, always selling poor little snakes. That is not fair to sell them and with severe kinks. Once I can accept but that is just rediculous doing it often. Feel free to correct me if Im wrong, even though Im sure most of you wouldnt think twice about it anyway, :P but arent kinks usually to do with faults within incubation? If it is then they certainly shouldnt be allowed to breed if this is always caused. :( Poor snakes.
Tiffany-x |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 28/10/2010 : 22:21:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Tiffany-x
I dont mean to be rude but if this is the same person/people they shouldnt be allowed to even keep snakes in my opinion, always selling poor little snakes. That is not fair to sell them and with severe kinks. Once I can accept but that is just rediculous doing it often. Feel free to correct me if Im wrong, even though Im sure most of you wouldnt think twice about it anyway, :P but arent kinks usually to do with faults within incubation? If it is then they certainly shouldnt be allowed to breed if this is always caused. :( Poor snakes.
Tiffany-x
Where do you suggest the 'kinky' babies go then?
I agree they shouldnt be 'sold', but they are well within their rights to rehome.
Kinks are not caused by 'faulty' incubation, they pretty much just happen, not all the time, but on the odd occasion.
I had 2 babies with kinks this year, both of which died of their own accord, which is what happens to most. |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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Edited by - mikerichards on 29/10/2010 10:32:48 |
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tehbunneh
Hatchling
United Kingdom
390 Posts |
Posted - 28/10/2010 : 23:34:24
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To mike: Hi, and thanks for your comment. I am aware they won't heal, which is partly why I took him on. He was being passed over by all the people I was standing near, so I asked about him, and what it meant by kinked, and the woman (there was only a blonde woman there) said it was genetic. She didn't specifically say it was from birth, but I guess she assumed I would know that, from looking at him. I was only thinking it could have been an accident from his reactions to his tub, with the aggression being taken out, and then the reluctance to return. Unfortunately, I guess, money did exchange hands - £15, reduced from what appears to be £30. The woman did not give me any identification, and no records on him either, she took the money and quickly went on to the next guy. I guess she was avoiding more questions being asked ^^'' I can't say I feel 'bad' for buying him, because at least with me, he may have more of a life then if he was just being carted around in the hopes of a quick sale.
To Stapey: Yeah, the woman got him out to show me, and it was clearly displayed on his tub as 'Kinky/Bumped' and she made very light of his bumps, but looking them up, they seem to be pretty bad. She told me initially he had one on his tail, and I asked to see him closer, and then she said 'Wait, there is one in his back, not his tail'. Got him home to find four. I got him from the PRAS con down in Havant last weekend, and got no business card or anything from them, as mentioned to Mike above, so I can't make any form of complaint to them. I really can't see me taking him back, regardless of the money issue, even if I did know where they were, I would just feel so awful, giving up on him. She claimed he fed Tuesday and had no issues, so I guess I'll just need to keep my eye on him. I would feel just awful if I took him back and he was just 'gotten rid of'.
To K: I didn't see a guy with her, though the man next to her in the very far corner could have been the same business, but his snakes, all pythons I believe, seemed far better taken care of, if I'm honest, and he seemed very happy to chat. I really wish I'd asked for some sort of business card now, seeing the amount of people saying I shouldn't have paid for him :'(
To Tif: To be fair, we can't assume they are the same, as I've said, I didn't see the scraggly-bearded man. Seeing the comments here, I can see perhaps I should have tried to haggle at least, but I just wanted to get him away really. This is a problem with hobbyist breeders, I guess. There are some people that are just out for the money, regardless of the state of the snakes they sell. I'm just pleased I may be able to make his life a little more comfortable, if there is much of it left.
I really am grateful to all of you for your comments. I would feel awful taking him back and getting my money instead, as I have to say, I've gotten attached to him and his kinks. He reminds me of myself, and my scoliosis! Whatever reason for his spinal kinks, I couldn't see myself getting him euthanised or sent away. I aim to give him as comfortable a life as possible until his time comes, if it is sooner rather then later, then I guess so be it, I'll have loved him and he would have been given a home he may not of otherwise got. Is there not something to say that, even with such bad kinks, he's reached the age and size he is now? |
EMZ - WORCESTER, UK
3.2.0 Corn Snakes
Conan (CB09 Carolina); Ripley (CB09 Ghost); Widget (CB09 Hypo Pewter); Dexter (CB10 Granite); Boa'tata (CB10 Bloodred)
0.1.0 Taiwanese Beauty
Taiki (CB11)
1.0.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake
Tanis (CB10)
0.0.1 Amazon Tree Boa
Winston (CB??) |
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Kehhlyr
ǝʞɐɔ sǝʌoן
United Kingdom
8173 Posts |
Posted - 29/10/2010 : 01:04:11
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If he's gonna live a happy life with you, does it matter if he's a bit kinky??
Special needs snakes ftw. |
-=Kehhlyr - The Resident Loon
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gingerpony
Queen Bee
United Kingdom
10455 Posts |
Posted - 29/10/2010 : 08:06:53
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quote:
Originally posted by mikerichards
Where do you suggest the 'kinky' babies go then?
personally i suggest they're euthanased or fed to a king snake. i'm really kicking myself about the kinky one i sold as a pet last year as i now have a feeling he'll be bred from.
quote:
Originally posted by mikerichards
Kinks are not caused by 'faulty' incubation, they pretty much just happen, not all the time, but on the odd occasion.
i'm sure a lot of breeders will disagree with you............ |
cornsnakes, ratsnakes, bullsnakes, boas and day geckos
Location:Leeds/York/Selby area |
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gingerpony
Queen Bee
United Kingdom
10455 Posts |
Posted - 29/10/2010 : 08:18:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Tiffany-x
...if this is the same person/people...Once I can accept but that is just rediculous doing it often. If it is then they certainly shouldnt be allowed to breed if this is always caused
totally agree. if somebody is continuously producing hatchies with defects they should do something about it. either not pair the same snakes again, remove one or both from their breeding programme or re-evaluate their incubation method.
unfortunately it's difficult and costly, sometimes time consuming or even impossible to work out where the cause lies 
i had a clutch last year with a good few awkward feeders, i won't pair the same snakes again incase it's an inherited trait but will put both snakes to different partners in the future. if i get awkward feeders again i'll remove the 'common cause' snake from my breeding plans. IMO the same should apply to ANY defects........ |
cornsnakes, ratsnakes, bullsnakes, boas and day geckos
Location:Leeds/York/Selby area |
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Mort13
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
5599 Posts |
Posted - 29/10/2010 : 08:48:03
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Its a hard one really as on one hand I'm with tehbunneh and think Widget deserves a chance. You wouldn't euthanise a human baby because it had a deformed leg would you?
But....I also think that people really shoudn't be breeding and then selling these animals for the animals sake and that one of the best ways of stopping it is for people not to buy the offspring as while theres a *market* people will continue to do it.
Good luck with Widget though,he's made it this far so he deserves a happy ending |
      
3.1.0 Corn snakes, 1.0.0 T-Albino Cape House Snake, 0.1.0 Western Hognose,
1.0.0 MBK, 0.1.0 Childrens Python, 1.0.0 Nicaraguan Dwarf Boas
0.0.1 Occelated Skink, 1.0.0 Leopard Gecko, 1.0.3 Tarantulas, 0.0.2 Damon diadema
1.0.0 C0ckatiel,
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SexyBear77
Fully Grown Corn
United Kingdom
3796 Posts |
Posted - 29/10/2010 : 10:13:15
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Hey there
The breeder I got my 2 recent additions from showed me an aztec amel she had taken from a very close friend. The snake was marked out for this breeder the second it was out of the egg, but within a few days they noticed she had 2 relatively bad kinks.
The snake is now around a year old, and the kinks are BAD. They have gotten progressively worse and the breeder is deciding when to have her put down.
It is a tough call to make- if you think that your snake is fairly happy in himself, he is able to eat, shed and defecate normally, then carry on as you are. However, there may well come a time soon that you know he isn't having a nice life- and then its time to say bye. |
9.11 Cornsnakes
1.1 Hogg island boas
1.0 Dwarf Burmese python
Location: Watford
Website- http://rassnakes.yolasite.com/ |
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mikerichards
don't say the 'M' word!
United Kingdom
2901 Posts |
Posted - 29/10/2010 : 10:39:42
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quote:
Originally posted by gingerpony
quote:
Originally posted by mikerichards
Where do you suggest the 'kinky' babies go then?
personally i suggest they're euthanased or fed to a king snake. i'm really kicking myself about the kinky one i sold as a pet last year as i now have a feeling he'll be bred from.
quote:
Originally posted by mikerichards
[br]Kinks are not caused by 'faulty' incubation, they pretty much just happen, not all the time, but on the odd occasion.
i'm sure a lot of breeders will disagree with you............
That should say 'not always'.
Kinky babies should not just be put down because they are kinky.
Deformed people are not put down because they are deformed.
It seems to me that people are very keen to play god with animals lives.
Its its capable of living, and it eats, sheds then why not let it live?
If its not meant to live, it wont. All of mine died that were kinky, only 2, but still.
Incubation does have an effect on the babies, incubating too hot is generally the cause, hot babies, they dont always have kinks though. |
Location : Worthing, West Sussex
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gingerpony
Queen Bee
United Kingdom
10455 Posts |
Posted - 29/10/2010 : 11:26:47
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quote:
Originally posted by mikerichards
That should say 'not always'
thanks for clarifying
quote:
Originally posted by mikerichards
Deformed people are not put down because they are deformed.
very true but we're talking about animals not humans, keepers generally advise not to humanise snakes, they don't have the same emotions as people etc. also human euthanasia is illegal 
quote:
Originally posted by mikerichards
It seems to me that people are very keen to play god with animals lives.
making that call is part of being a responsible owner/breeder, there's plenty of 'correctly formed' corns out there, an overload in fact, the market is pretty flooded! so IMO a responsible breeder should deal with 'pet only' standard corns in an effective and humane way to prevent them being used for breeding. if that means keeping all the kinky corns yourself, great, but it's unlikely to be a viable option.
we seem to be drifting a bit off topic but feel free to start a fresh thread on this ethical dilemma
and if the OP's corn has got to a year old and isn't in any discomfort then i'm not suggesting euthanasia!!! |
cornsnakes, ratsnakes, bullsnakes, boas and day geckos
Location:Leeds/York/Selby area |
Edited by - gingerpony on 29/10/2010 11:38:30 |
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FiestaSTLou
Yearling
United Kingdom
556 Posts |
Posted - 29/10/2010 : 14:14:38
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tehbunny the stall u got him from, did they have LOADS of corns on there? as it seems to be the same place i got philip from that day to! blonde women that served me, very rushed, all she said after i exchanged money was he last ate tuesday and leave him be for a week, i had to ask her if he had any records n she said no, i then asked when he was born and i got july or august... and it was the top right hand corner! so i am assuming it was the same stall. Did your snakies box have a blue or red sticker on to tell u the sex?
Not the most professional service iv recieved from experience buying at shows, like u said hun no biz card or anything, and hardly any time to talk about the snakes which was total opposite when we bought from pireps and djreps and well talking to any of the breeders at shows.
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Edited by - FiestaSTLou on 29/10/2010 14:18:35 |
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tehbunneh
Hatchling
United Kingdom
390 Posts |
Posted - 29/10/2010 : 17:06:13
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Ooh, dilemmas X3
K : I agree, I'm not at all worried about him being kinky. My only concern was if I was causing undue pain by housing him, though currently, the only thing I've seen of him discomfort wise is when he is first handled in each session, as though he's a bit stiff in the kinks, rather then pained.
GP : I was told by the woman that he was not breeding stock, hence why she was selling. He was a pet snake only. That was one of the first things she did say, of what little she did say, which suited me to the ground, because I've no interest in breeding. I am very much a hobbyist pet snake owner, not a breeder. A collector may be a better term? I think to say all kinkies should be euthanised is a bit aggressive, but that is, as I say, my view as someone that isn't interested in the breeding aspects of snake ownership. I can see for yourself, who may supply other breeders with your stock, that to sell a kinkie who may be genetically 'faulty' (couldn't think of a better word, as this makes it sound like they are an object rather then something living) could be problematic, and may cause you to have a bad reputation within the breeding world, so I can't condemn your view, but... yeah. I feel euthanising them, or feeding to other snakes is a bit excessive ^^''
Mort : Thanks mate, and yeah, I can understand what you mean over the 'if people buy kinkies, then there is a market to be exploited'. I would have just felt horrid if he'd been euthanised, despite getting to a year old! He deserved a chance, and if further down the line I have to make the decision to have him put down to end his pain, if there is ever a time there is pain, then I will do it, for his sake.
SB : Hey there, thanks for commenting. Yeah, I can see how that would be a tough call, especially if pain is starting to become an issue for the snake, as well as mobility issues. I hope that this little guy's kinks won't get worse, and won't cause pain, but if they do, I'm prepared to make the decision for euthanasia to be used, just to end his suffering. Currently, he seems perfectly well, will be being fed Sunday, so I will be able to see how he copes, and then I'll keep my eye on his shedding and pooping, until I have all the info I need to be fully aware of his situation. He moved fine, is a quick, nippy little fella, and seems perfectly at ease being handled once picked up, so I'm hoping this will last for a few years, but iunno. If the need arises, I am prepared ^^ Thanks for your concern!
Mike : I have to agree. If he was gonna peg it, I'm sure he'd have done it when he was little. Not that these kinks couldn't get worse. I am prepared that that could be the case, and I wouldn't want him to be hurting if it didn't need to be the case.
Fiesta : Hey girl, yeah, sounds like you went to the same woman! Same box set up too. They were all piled up on the table without heatmats or lights to keep them warm, no water or any sort of hide. I saw them all and would have taken them all too, had I the space and the cash T^T I'm pleased another little fella is safe though! Have you felt him over, made sure he's all ok? If me, you and K all bought from the same place, might be worth taking your snake out for a little feel, make sure his back is all aligned properly. Whilst I was looking, a guy next to me bought about six of them! I hope they all go to a good home. |
EMZ - WORCESTER, UK
3.2.0 Corn Snakes
Conan (CB09 Carolina); Ripley (CB09 Ghost); Widget (CB09 Hypo Pewter); Dexter (CB10 Granite); Boa'tata (CB10 Bloodred)
0.1.0 Taiwanese Beauty
Taiki (CB11)
1.0.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake
Tanis (CB10)
0.0.1 Amazon Tree Boa
Winston (CB??) |
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Widget's Kinks
