| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| n/a |
Posted - 15/03/2010 : 19:08:18
heres one to baffle you experts, now i know its known that pine is bad for corn snakes but my question is due to a bit of contradiction as i have picked up a few books from the library today in the book it states
"Corn snakes range from the pine barrons of New Jersey southwards to key West and west to the Mississipi River, with disjunct populations in Nebraska, Colorado, and Utah. Partial to sandy pine and oak woods, rocky hillsides, edges of streams, abandon buildings and barns".
so my question is if pine is bad for them why in this book does it state they range from the pine barons and are also partial to sandy pine?
the book is called snakes written by David Badger information from Albert & Anna Wright
paul |
| 13 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| DannyBrown91 |
Posted - 16/03/2010 : 10:05:52
quote:
Originally posted by Kellog
Also Kehhlyr's point is valid. Wild corns would be a lot stronger to a lot of things than our corns as they are constantly exposed to them, generation followed by generation, whereas our corns dont have that built in 'immunity'. Kehhlyr uses the example of the War of the Worlds, but it has happened in the REAL world with tribes that have come into contact with the white man and even with chimp colonies.
xxx
Very true, i watched a programme last week sometime about Shaka Zulu, leader of the African Zulu Tribe and one of the weapons they used to use was a poison made from plants and berries, on the show they looked at the recipe and proved it to indeed be poisonous enough to kill a human with a medium dose, however the zulu tribe used to mush it up mix it with water and spit it in the enemies faces. What would blid the enemy and cause them to become very ill or even die if it got into there bloodstream which it likely would had they not died from the fight, but the zulus built up there imune systems by taking it in small doses slowly becoming imune to the point that they could put more than fatal amounts in their mouths.
It can also be seen how a baby or a puppy would get injections to build up their immune systems against certain virus's and diseases. |
| Kellog |
Posted - 16/03/2010 : 02:47:10
Also, when you think about it....how much contact would corns actually come into with pine sap in the wild? I know some would fall to the ground, but corns are not arboreal and therefore would not be continually slithering over it absorbing it through their belly scales....which is what we are expecting them to do within the confines of their poorly ventilated (in comparison with the wild) vivs.
Also Kehhlyr's point is valid. Wild corns would be a lot stronger to a lot of things than our corns as they are constantly exposed to them, generation followed by generation, whereas our corns dont have that built in 'immunity'. Kehhlyr uses the example of the War of the Worlds, but it has happened in the REAL world with tribes that have come into contact with the white man and even with chimp colonies.
I think the main point is that we are expecting our corns to have continual exposure to pine that can be absorbed through their scales, with no escape or break except when they are being handled....and it is the build up of those toxins in their system that is harmful - which is why a corn may be on a pine based substrate for a while and seem fine but you never know what damage is being done internally and what problems it may cause in the snake's future health.
xxx |
| Kehhlyr |
Posted - 15/03/2010 : 23:07:40
Also, think of war of the worlds.
The aliens died because of a standard common cold, we can throw that off because we're used to it.
I'd imagine that wild corns have a much stronger immune system compared to 15th generation captive bred snakes.
Dunno if that would make any odds, but I'd imagine it would. |
| eeji |
Posted - 15/03/2010 : 21:57:07
the problem with pine is the phenols in the sap - its this that is toxic.
Out in the wild they're in a big open space and not in a tiny box with tiny vents in someones house where theres no escape from it. |
| Kare |
Posted - 15/03/2010 : 21:24:01
Hemp bedding is cheaper and more enviromentally friendly, breaks down quicker and there are no rumors of it being dangerous. Seems a no brainer to me. |
| DannyBrown91 |
Posted - 15/03/2010 : 21:08:31
quote:
Originally posted by Sta~ple
There are a lot of contradictions of using pine bedding. Many people say it should never be used for bedding for rabbits, rats or any animal yet there seems to be a lot of companies making pine bedding products so either A) It's not that harmful or B) These companies are idiots. I'm sure when we used rabbits we always used pine shavings and they were fine but maybe that's because there caged so have more air flow into where they live. I would have though though that actually maybe pine for snakes is ok since snakes don't really wee, they poo. I know nothing about the chemical composition of any poo or wee but surely poo doesn't contain that much ammonia and because of how little snakes actualy go to the toiet I guess it wouldn't build up so much as long as you took out the snakey waste as soon as you saw it.
Another reason why pine is supposedly bad for snakes is incase they eat it they can't break it down but I would have thought that to be the same of any kinda substrate. Unless your bedding your snakes with mices XD
This is a good point but i think there may be something in the pine that is harmful to snakes in particular. |
| Sta~ple |
Posted - 15/03/2010 : 20:48:34
There are a lot of contradictions of using pine bedding. Many people say it should never be used for bedding for rabbits, rats or any animal yet there seems to be a lot of companies making pine bedding products so either A) It's not that harmful or B) These companies are idiots. I'm sure when we used rabbits we always used pine shavings and they were fine but maybe that's because there caged so have more air flow into where they live. I would have though though that actually maybe pine for snakes is ok since snakes don't really wee, they poo. I know nothing about the chemical composition of any poo or wee but surely poo doesn't contain that much ammonia and because of how little snakes actualy go to the toiet I guess it wouldn't build up so much as long as you took out the snakey waste as soon as you saw it.
Another reason why pine is supposedly bad for snakes is incase they eat it they can't break it down but I would have thought that to be the same of any kinda substrate. Unless your bedding your snakes with mices XD |
| n/a |
Posted - 15/03/2010 : 20:26:49
now i think its making sense lol cheers
paul |
| Kare |
Posted - 15/03/2010 : 20:21:19
Disclaimer: the following relates to and is based on small caged animals however maybe the same is true for snakes.
My understand is pine is not in its self harmful, it is the combination of urine and the pine wood which releases chemicals that can be harmful. I would guess a snake in the wild wouldnt pee on a pine tree and then sit there inhaling it, where, as suggested above, in a tank it cannot get away from the fumes. Similar I guess to using glue, it is safe, as long as you dont sit there sniffing it or use it in a confined area. |
| n/a |
Posted - 15/03/2010 : 20:06:31
this is what confuses me like i said in last post the corns would be in contact with the sap that contains the chemicals though it would make sense of it bein a open area but would also be a area well covered in pine trees which give out a constant scent
paul |
| Sta~ple |
Posted - 15/03/2010 : 19:52:44
Maybe it is to to do with the chemicals pine gives off. Pine is supposed to cause breathing problems, In the wild, it is an open area while in a tank I guess all the stuff pine contains would heat up and build up in the viv.
I have to say from past personal experience from before I knew pine was supposedly bad, my snakes seemed fine on pine pellets and I used it for many a year as it said no toxic on the bag. |
| n/a |
Posted - 15/03/2010 : 19:21:38
but the problem i have pine as in a living state with bark on sweats thus leaking the harmful sap so the corns would still be in direct contact my heads mashed
paul |
| DannyBrown91 |
Posted - 15/03/2010 : 19:15:31
I'm no expert but in the wild they would be living on the ground surrounded by the pine trees (which also still have brk on - could make a difference) were as in captivity we warn not to use pine and other soft woods as then they are in direct contact with the wood and the toxic chemical inside the pine is fully exposed. |
