| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Kehhlyr |
Posted - 19/05/2010 : 21:26:57
This is always a nice hot topic, and I thought it'd be interesting to start it again seeing as we have some new 'faces' that might find the discussions interesting.
Please remember that it's not an opportunity to vent directly at people, but likewise sensible opinions/thoughts are welcomed.
quote:
Originally posted by matty18714
Live feeding is a grey area in the law. It is perfectly legal to live feed in the UK aslong as you arnt doing it to cause deliberate suffering or for entertainment. I have also heared that you should show that you have tried all other appropriate measures to feed the snake, but I think thats rubbish myself, though I havent checked.
I've been told that live feeding for entertainment or because you want 'to see what it's like' IS illegal as it's then classed as being cruel to the animal (both snake and the mice).
Live feeding for the survival of a snake is NOT illegal.
The reason it's a grey area is exactly as Matty said, it's very hard to prove you've exhausted all other options first.
I've said it before hand (and shall say it again) that in some ways look at it like dog fighting;
Dogs that have a scrap in the field while on walkies is just 2 dogs fighting, nothing wrong with that.
Dogs that are organised to fight purely so that people can watch is illegal.
See what I mean there.
Discuss. 
/quick edit
Remember that the laws for live feeding as stated above are only the UK laws.
Other countries (north america etc) have always seemed to live feed, so therefore it's not frowned upon as it is over here, so please remember that as well. |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| AcidicAngel |
Posted - 27/02/2013 : 21:54:15
I would like to voice my opinion on this
I will say straight out that my snakes have had F/T and Fresh Killed. Well, Sakana has had Live too. The live was actually a genuine accident though and will never be done again. You may now be asking "How was it an accident? Surely you knew you were putting a live mouse into the viv?" and my answer is that A. It wasn't in the viv and B. I didn't even know the mouse was there. I had got her out for a hold before her due feed, took her through to my uncles living room. She was still my uncles snake and my uncle was away at work so I was looking after her. I cleared space on the floor, hoovered with her round my neck and put her on the floor for a roam. Obviously I kept my eye on her and because I was so focused on her I didn't notice the live mouse that had decided the back door being open looked interesting... You can guess what happened next. Sakana's instincts took over, she struck, coiled and ate the mouse within about 5 minutes. I've never seen her move so fast! I didn't know there was anything there till she started eating and then I realized why she'd struck. I quickly put the frozen mouse back in the freezer while she was eating and when she finished I took her back to her viv. Early, unintended and could have ended badly due to my... Well I was being a good owner by keeping a very close eye on her while she wandered round on the floor but a bad owner by not keeping my eye open for any wildlife that came to investigate. So there's Sakana's story. Luckily the mouse was healthy, or at least appeared to be since Sakana never came to any harm and was never ill after. I was lucky with that.
Now, onto the reason for Fresh Killed. Both snakes were off their food, not even taking chick-scented mice so I called my friend who breeds mice and asked her to bring 2 over for me. They were near adult or "hoppers" and about 19 grams in weight. I did the usual way of killing them, smack their heads against a hard desk as hard as possible without actually splitting their heads and it worked. Both mice were dead before being offered to the snakes.
And obviously as everyone knows, my snakes will readily take F/T mice.
My opinion on this could be sort of seen as hypocritical with Sakana's incident but I would say that if all other options have been tried and the snake will definitely not eat anything and if losing weight quickly then you can live feed. For entertainment or because you like it is not acceptable. Obviously, I know Sakana is capable of getting the correct hold on the mouse before coiling so that it doesn't bite her if I ever had to live feed but I would still keep an eye on her. I would be a lot more anxious to live feed Cereus as he grabs mice by the stomach and doesn't coil very tightly... Hence the mouse would be capable of biting and probably would take ages to die.
This is only my opinion and I don't expect everyone to agree. I'm also sort of expecting some replies like "Why would you let the snake roam?" or something. That was because my uncles exceptionally large living room was perfect for Sakana and her sibling(Red) to have some stretch out time. I'd got Sakana out first and when she went back was going to get Red out... That plan went away when Sakana did her trick. I left Red's mouse out and let that defrost, when it was finished defrosting I removed Red from the viv and fed Red in his feeding tub |
| ScalySituation |
Posted - 16/10/2012 : 21:54:58
First off don't worry
Try warming it up, some use warm water, some use a hair dryer
missing one meal for them is like us missing breakfast, you have so many Weeks and so many tactics to try before you need to worry
Have a look at the sticky in the health section on non feeders |
| liamewan |
Posted - 16/10/2012 : 21:31:44
How long should I defrost my pinkie as this is the first time I am feeding Kellogg and so far the pinkie was defrosted overnight in the fridge the left an hour before feeding at room temp and it has been in with him for half hour and so far he hasn't touched it so naturally I am worried!!!!!
HELP |
| liamewan |
Posted - 16/10/2012 : 21:28:33
quote:
Originally posted by Kehhlyr
This is always a nice hot topic, and I thought it'd be interesting to start it again seeing as we have some new 'faces' that might find the discussions interesting.
Please remember that it's not an opportunity to vent directly at people, but likewise sensible opinions/thoughts are welcomed.
quote:
Originally posted by matty18714
Live feeding is a grey area in the law. It is perfectly legal to live feed in the UK aslong as you arnt doing it to cause deliberate suffering or for entertainment. I have also heared that you should show that you have tried all other appropriate measures to feed the snake, but I think thats rubbish myself, though I havent checked.
I've been told that live feeding for entertainment or because you want 'to see what it's like' IS illegal as it's then classed as being cruel to the animal (both snake and the mice).
Live feeding for the survival of a snake is NOT illegal.
The reason it's a grey area is exactly as Matty said, it's very hard to prove you've exhausted all other options first.
I've said it before hand (and shall say it again) that in some ways look at it like dog fighting;
Dogs that have a scrap in the field while on walkies is just 2 dogs fighting, nothing wrong with that.
Dogs that are organised to fight purely so that people can watch is illegal.
See what I mean there.
Discuss.
/quick edit
Remember that the laws for live feeding as stated above are only the UK laws.
Other countries (north america etc) have always seemed to live feed, so therefore it's not frowned upon as it is over here, so please remember that as well.
|
| QueenVic |
Posted - 18/06/2012 : 00:36:47
Yeah I wouldnt feed live unless the snakes life was in danger.
Its unnecessarily cruel to the mouse and puts the snake in potential danger..
If it will eat dead ones, then there's no need for live. imo :)
|
| smokeysfc |
Posted - 17/06/2012 : 22:09:16
i couldnt feed a live mouse for fun but for survival of the snake at a last resort i would but i couldnt watch it those people that do it for fun need to think how would they feel being fed to a animal when they are alive i no that sounds really dramatic but feeding live animals to a snake for fun is really messed up people that get a kick out of it are messed up and id advise to go see a mental health specialist like i said people that live feed for survival of the snake then fair enough i see that as necesary like if you was standed with no water but a dirty puddle would you drink it to survive |
| SheWolfey |
Posted - 25/10/2011 : 11:59:29
I guess its peoples personal choice. If people want to live feed and their not making a show out of it then its fine. As long as its in the best interests of the snake though.
But if they are doing it for fun, then they shouldn't.
I probably couldn't live feed my self, but I can understand why people do (as long as they are not hurting the snake). |
| mikerichards |
Posted - 25/10/2011 : 01:20:24
quote:
Originally posted by tordyjo
this is not in reply to any particular comments just my feelings and views on the subject
As i said in the other post i think that particular video was 'an example' of how good a hunter and killers corn snakes can be. Is it any different to letting your pet cat out to go and hunt, catch, then play with what they have caught often not killing the animal letting it suffer throughout the process. Yes i am a cat owner and many times have i woken up to mouse or mouse guts at the bottom of the stairs - a mouse that was once alive and i've no doubt suffered a great deal more than one would have if fed to a snake. Its nature and the food chain, as a meat eater i am aware that meat i eat will have come from an animal that has been killed quickly and humanely - as humans we are able to do that, the snake is killing the mouse as quickly and humanely as is possible for the species.
Hope i've explained myself...............
EDIT - i do feed f/t however wouldn't hesitate in using a live mouse if the need ever arose (which is unlikely but can't be discounted)
Its a fair arguement, and a good one. Its also no different to feeding a leopard gecko live locusts, crickets and mealworms, i bet there are very few people who bat an eyelid at a cricket or locust being crushed or eaten live by a gecko.
I have cats aswell, and have rescued a fair few completely traumatised mice from the cats, completely unharmed but frozen with fear, they do the same with frogs, birds, and pretty much anything else that moves, in the youngest ones case, flies!!!
How many times have you seen a Kestrel or similar hovering at the side of the road, and not even thought of the mouse or vole its watching? Been fishing and not really thought about the fish you catch? Seen an eagle catch a fish and fly off with it and not thought about the fish? The point is, live feeding happens everywhere in nature, its natures way, watch an african plains program, you'll see it in a different light.
We feed out snakes defrost mostly because its cheaper, its the way it has been for many many years, so thats the way it is.
I still dont really get why people think a snake is going to be savaged by a live mouse, an adult mouse barely breaks my skin, let alone a snake that has scales, that is exactly why they have scales, to protect them from bites and scratches, rats are a whole different ball game to mice though, been bitten by one, sodding hurts, straight to the bone!!!
I can also assure you, your snake knows the difference between defrost and fresh kill, the smell is completely different, and they react accordingly, its natures inbuilt natural instincts. |
| mikeyd_26 |
Posted - 20/10/2011 : 23:12:09
my opinion was and still is on this topic, if a snake NEEDS live feeding, then do it! by becoming a snake owner you are responsible for that snake and that should be a priority. As said before people who live feed for laughs dont deserve the pleasure of snake ownership. But there is a time and a place for live feeding and i totally agree with mike r And lotabob they make sense as people who obviously care for there snakes. :) |
| tordyjo |
Posted - 20/10/2011 : 07:14:44
this is not in reply to any particular comments just my feelings and views on the subject
As i said in the other post i think that particular video was 'an example' of how good a hunter and killers corn snakes can be. Is it any different to letting your pet cat out to go and hunt, catch, then play with what they have caught often not killing the animal letting it suffer throughout the process. Yes i am a cat owner and many times have i woken up to mouse or mouse guts at the bottom of the stairs - a mouse that was once alive and i've no doubt suffered a great deal more than one would have if fed to a snake. Its nature and the food chain, as a meat eater i am aware that meat i eat will have come from an animal that has been killed quickly and humanely - as humans we are able to do that, the snake is killing the mouse as quickly and humanely as is possible for the species.
Hope i've explained myself...............
EDIT - i do feed f/t however wouldn't hesitate in using a live mouse if the need ever arose (which is unlikely but can't be discounted) |
| scottishbluebird |
Posted - 20/10/2011 : 00:56:54
I dont so much have a problem with live feeding, just wouldnt want to do it myself,but if it was general practice to feed live, i wouldnt have a snake.(unless for thatparticular snake had to for some reason) as someone posted it really gets me when its used like sport, just to amuse people.
Then there is the risk of damage to the snake |
| mikerichards |
Posted - 19/10/2011 : 21:55:06
reading the other thread, i still find it amazing that so many people have such an issue with live feeding. A lot of people find live feeding a lot more convenient than feeding defrost, myself included, and most of america, infact, most places other than this country!
It was mentioned on the other thread by someone with less than average knowledge that live was illegal if the snake will take defrost, complete rubbish, its perfectly legal. It is illegal to live feed for entertainment or if it causes undue stress.
There is not a snake out there that is incapable of catching and killing its prey, alive or dead, they all have their own ways of dealing with them.
People either choose to live feed or not, whether needed or not, thats neither right nor wrong, its the way it goes. One thing is fact, it has its time and place. |
| tk72 |
Posted - 02/10/2011 : 09:12:42
Well being new to owning got our first yesterday (1st Oct) had a look on youtube to see feeding techniques and there are a few live feedings on there. Would not personally do it as the baby mouse looked and sounded petrified while all the onlookers where cheering. Glad the kids did not see it they would have gone mental. No live feeding not for me, but I feel its a difficult issue as if your snake will only eat live are you going to let it starve? Been told mine feeds ok and fingers crossed it does. |
| mikerichards |
Posted - 16/09/2011 : 22:56:59
quote:
Originally posted by lotabob
I dont think I've ever commented on live feeding before (though dont quote me on that) so I shall share my views on it, its quite simple as i see it, predators eat other animals. Most animals are built extremely well to kill their prey in the quickest way possible with the smallest risk to themselves and snakes are no different. I don't see it as cruel or irresponsible either snakes are built to kill, they have more muscle mass than they would ever need to move or climb, this is purely for the kill, they have a layer of armour with their scales to protect their skin and soft tissues and their teeth face backwards for holding onto moving prey. They do kill their prey quicker than we could in the humane ways used on our frozen food.
I buy frozen mice and rats for my snakes and have absolutely no idea where they come from or the conditions they live in so is that cruel? It might be. Someone breeding and bringing up their own food for live feeding are giving them the very best life possible for a prey item and the snake will see to its death in a very quick way so quality of life and speed of death makes that a far better option for the mouse and I amire them for the time they devote to their animals.
There is also the point of I live feed crickets to my Gecko and my Tarantula, The Gecko kills them very slowly, by crushing their heads, and my Tarantula just holds onto them and punches them full of holes injecting venom but thats not a fast death either, does that make this practice cruel? I don't think it is, my crickets get looked after very well while they are alive. What makes feeding mice so controversial and yet feeding insects totally acceptable?
There will always be the debate of is it right or wrong but if its done right and responsibly then really there are no issues legal or morally. I don't live feed but thats not saying I never will, I have a Royal Python and sometimes situations arise where its required to live feed (this can arise with any snake, it is something to consider before getting one) so if that situation ever arises then I will do what is best for all the animals involved.
If there was a like button, i would be pressing it repeatedly, very sound and good arguement.
Very true, everything you said is spot on. |
| lotabob |
Posted - 16/09/2011 : 19:20:45
I dont think I've ever commented on live feeding before (though dont quote me on that) so I shall share my views on it, its quite simple as i see it, predators eat other animals. Most animals are built extremely well to kill their prey in the quickest way possible with the smallest risk to themselves and snakes are no different. I don't see it as cruel or irresponsible either snakes are built to kill, they have more muscle mass than they would ever need to move or climb, this is purely for the kill, they have a layer of armour with their scales to protect their skin and soft tissues and their teeth face backwards for holding onto moving prey. They do kill their prey quicker than we could in the humane ways used on our frozen food.
I buy frozen mice and rats for my snakes and have absolutely no idea where they come from or the conditions they live in so is that cruel? It might be. Someone breeding and bringing up their own food for live feeding are giving them the very best life possible for a prey item and the snake will see to its death in a very quick way so quality of life and speed of death makes that a far better option for the mouse and I amire them for the time they devote to their animals.
There is also the point of I live feed crickets to my Gecko and my Tarantula, The Gecko kills them very slowly, by crushing their heads, and my Tarantula just holds onto them and punches them full of holes injecting venom but thats not a fast death either, does that make this practice cruel? I don't think it is, my crickets get looked after very well while they are alive. What makes feeding mice so controversial and yet feeding insects totally acceptable?
There will always be the debate of is it right or wrong but if its done right and responsibly then really there are no issues legal or morally. I don't live feed but thats not saying I never will, I have a Royal Python and sometimes situations arise where its required to live feed (this can arise with any snake, it is something to consider before getting one) so if that situation ever arises then I will do what is best for all the animals involved. |
| xxlillybudxx |
Posted - 16/09/2011 : 18:12:55
mky whole life ... well from a very early age at least ... my family has had pythons... and i've never known ANY of them to eat frozen ... so when i got my corn snake last week i was suprised to learn that there is such debate on live feeding and whether it should be done or not .... i suppose it DOES genuinely all boil down to what your snake is used to ... if it has only ever eaten live then i think it's a bit mean to then say no you can have a frozen one or nothing... but again if it's only ever known frozen then it's equally mean to just chuck in live prey because it's what YOU want .... i guess it's all about the best thing for your snake and how they have been fed previuosly x
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| Krazy Kim |
Posted - 15/09/2011 : 22:21:49
I know I'm pretty knew to keeping snakes and thankfully mine has never been even remotely fussy if a had to I would feed live but id probably talk to the vet about all options available first. |
| Sta~ple |
Posted - 15/09/2011 : 11:47:22
quote:
Originally posted by btcc11
So I've noticed some people here are for live-feeding so what would be the moral status of feeding my corn snake to my dog? He's pretty hungry and I'm sure he'd love it!
Your being an idiot and missing the point completely. First off being snakes can be picky with food, while dogs eat anything. Live feeding for snakes is done as a last or near last resort not because people do it for the lolz. |
| mikerichards |
Posted - 15/09/2011 : 10:15:16
quote:
Originally posted by btcc11
So I've noticed some people here are for live-feeding so what would be the moral status of feeding my corn snake to my dog? He's pretty hungry and I'm sure he'd love it!
Stupid mor.. moro.. I cant do it! you get the idea. Stop making stupid pointless arguements.
The whole point of live feeding is to get a non feeding snake, usually a royal or boa, to eat again.
Another comment on here, corns being different to other snakes, how exactly?? They are just as an efficient killer as a boa or python.
The whole thing about a mouse scratching the snake, what exactly do you think the scales are for??????? beleive me, a mouse will not bite through the scales, let alone scratch through.
I think people are missing the point slightly, live feeding is something that should be done when NEEDED, when the snake hasnt eaten for a while, or is being overly fussy. If the snake will take fresh kill or defrost, then its not NEEDED. I feed mine fresh kill a lot, i dont bother with live unless its something that has issues feeding fresh kill, baby royals and baby boas, never once have i come across a Corn thats needed live to convince it to feed.
Anyone who thinks a cornsnake is any less able to catch and kill its own food, including large mice, is deluded. They are essentially wild animals, they havent been domesticated, they have all their natural instincts in place, they are more than capable.
Fresh kill feeding is always going to be preferable to live feeding, if i have something that will feed fresh kill, then thats what it gets, i dont then give it live just because its easier, not many people would. Mostly that situation is gonna happen with snakes that are notoriously fussy, baby boas and baby royals, they really sould be started on live, then moved to fresh kill, then defrost, feeding live whilst on defrost is moving backwards.
I breed a lot of mice, and i use fresh kill, i get a better feeding response from the snakes and its nice and easy, no defrosting involved! Anything that doesnt get eaten is fine to freeze for another day.
Assist feeding and force feeding are last ditch attempts, i would always always try live before doing that, and i would recommend to anyone to try live before force feeding. |
| gingerpony |
Posted - 12/09/2011 : 22:03:10
a cornsnake is not a staple diet of a dog, you're just being argumentative now............. |
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