| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| alexbruxa |
Posted - 11/06/2012 : 22:51:22
My 2 yo male corn snake, Butch Cassidy died today. I'm trying to figure out where did I go wrong, I'm devastated as I watched him suffer and there was nothing I could do. It happened so fast, I only managed to find a website and a phone number for a vet and Butch died within minutes. It was so random and weird, I hope that someone can help me to determine what could have happened to him. I got him 4 months ago from a friend who has a few other snakes, he's never had any health issues and was a good eater. He was my first and only snake.
This morning it looked like he was trying to throw up. He had never done this before. His behavior was far from normal, i.e he rested all day on the cold side of cage, swirled and stretched his body in a wavy kind of way, was very active later in the day, it seemed like he could not sit still, and had his mouth wide open for minutes at once. I asked for advice the experienced guy in my local reptile shop, and he said not to worry as he probably just needs to throw up half digested meal. He said to try to put him in a little lukewarm water in the bath. I went back home, put him in the bath but took him out after a minute as clearly he looked more stressed. At this point I started to cry, as he went lump in my hands and I knew something was terribly wrong. At about 6pm he started to move his body in such a terrifying way indicating to me that he was suffering;swirling, turning on sides, moving constantly. He then discharged a bit of a white, bubbly liquid from his mouth. I thought that maybe he will finally throw up. He kept on moving for a bit, then was gasping for air, turned upside down and died.
The worst thing is that in the past week I bathed him twice, believing it will help him defecate as it happened before when he was constipated. I now think it killed him.
He's been feed 10 days ago, and defecated once (usually it takes two times for him). I feed him frozen thawed mice. His viv temp average s 23-24 C, aspen bedding, hides and water provided. I clean his viv regularly and change the water daily.
Thanks for anything you can help me with. |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Tasha89 |
Posted - 27/06/2012 : 17:09:04
Sorry if this has already been posted as i was only scan reading through the replies, but to me it sounds like he may have had a respitory infection from low temps if he was slithering around with his mouyth open, rolling around, finfing it hard to breathe and also foam coming from the nostrils: http://www.anapsid.org/rti.html
Either way you did the best you can from what you were told and trying your best to get him better.
So sorry for your loss, please dont blame yourself.
|
| BOWZER43 |
Posted - 22/06/2012 : 20:32:54
Hey, I am soo sorry. I had a panther gecko a while ago and i had it for about a week. then it started having these seizure things. its jaw would lock up and stay open and his legs would like sstick straight out. i would just pick him up and hold him and eventually he stopped breathing and he died. i took him back to where i got him and i just left his cage alone for a couple months and i started to notice some little sand piles getting built on this log i had in there. so i was thinking that some parasite that was living in the log had gotten into ny lizard and thats what killed him. but i tossed all the stuff in the viv and deep cleaned it and my corn is doing fine in the viv. Idk if this is the same thing that happend but im sorry |
| Isoldael |
Posted - 17/06/2012 : 22:43:47
I'm so sorry for your loss. I had the same with one of my very first 2 hatchies, although I wasn't there to see him die. One day, he was absolutely fine, eating well, not regurgitating anything, the next I came home from university and he was dead in his viv. I wanted to get a post mortem done, but being a student I simply couldn't miss the €200,- it would have costed me.
I know how you feel... I kept wondering what I had done wrong as well. From what I can read here there's nothing drastic that you've done wrong. I can only recommend thorougly desinfecting the viv (just in case it's something that can survive "outside") and getting that new snake your mate bought. It won't replace your old snake, but at least it will add a new bit of light :) |
| alexbruxa |
Posted - 14/06/2012 : 11:04:27
quote:
Originally posted by Spreebok
quote:
Sadly, my temp sensor was always up in the air. Big mistake? It was usually indicating 22 to 26 C. I assumed it must have been a bit hotter right on the mat, where my snake would usually rest. Should the temp be always the same? And if I hot glue it, wouldn't it affect my snake? As for feeding pattern, as soon as I got him I changed it, could that contribute to his death? I switched from a big rat once a month to a small mice every 7-10 days. Sorry for all these questions, I'm getting a bit crazy here.
Yeah, temp sensor in the air is not the right thing for mats, they absorb the heat through their bellies, but if it was too hot, he would have likely stayed away from it. The hot end temp should always stay constant, during day and night, you'll find it fluctuates a little bit, but so long as it stays within 27 - 30 degrees, preferably at about 28degrees it'll be good.
Hotglue won't affect them, it's just a bit of plastic :)
Changing the feeding pattern wouldn't have affect him, if anything, previously being fed on such large food may have actually caused a bit of damage. You did the right thing moving him to the correct size.
I found a good food chart here: http://iansvivarium.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=75
According to it, a large rat is equivalent to a 1/2 pound rabbit :O The biggest rat I'd feed an adult is a weaner rat, same as a x-large mouse. The large rat is the third in from the right.
Haha, sorry to go on about the large rat, I'm just boggling that your friend thought that would FIT, let alone work as a staple diet. I do think you were sold a corn that was, well, a bit damaged. I'm glad to hear you'll be accepting the new one though :)
Yeah, you're probably right. I'm a bit angry with my mate, but no matter what I do, it won't bring back my snake. So I will just have to seek advice elsewhere when I will get a new little guy. After speaking to some vets, I now know that it couldn't have been undigested meal as he defecated some time before he died. The poo was like any other before. Thanks for all your support. |
| alexbruxa |
Posted - 14/06/2012 : 10:56:56
quote:
Originally posted by Sta~ple
We all get bad advise, with reptiles though it may not look like we are doing wrong when we are as there instinct is to never show any weakness or illness. It could have been anything that killed him, something unpreventable like a heart attack, you just cannot beat yourself up about it. Only think you can do is lots of reading before you get a new guy.
Temp sensor in the air is a no with a mat, it should touch the mat. Hot glue gun wont effect your snake if you let it dry first, I don't hot glue gun mine though but I think I should probably! Feeding pattern wouldn't have killed him.
Thanks. I spoke to several vets and they all seem to think that my snake most likely caught something from the boas and/or python he was kept with previously. The other snakes were prob immune to the illness and my corn was not. :( |
| Spreebok |
Posted - 13/06/2012 : 12:33:53
quote:
Sadly, my temp sensor was always up in the air. Big mistake? It was usually indicating 22 to 26 C. I assumed it must have been a bit hotter right on the mat, where my snake would usually rest. Should the temp be always the same? And if I hot glue it, wouldn't it affect my snake? As for feeding pattern, as soon as I got him I changed it, could that contribute to his death? I switched from a big rat once a month to a small mice every 7-10 days. Sorry for all these questions, I'm getting a bit crazy here.
Yeah, temp sensor in the air is not the right thing for mats, they absorb the heat through their bellies, but if it was too hot, he would have likely stayed away from it. The hot end temp should always stay constant, during day and night, you'll find it fluctuates a little bit, but so long as it stays within 27 - 30 degrees, preferably at about 28degrees it'll be good.
Hotglue won't affect them, it's just a bit of plastic :)
Changing the feeding pattern wouldn't have affect him, if anything, previously being fed on such large food may have actually caused a bit of damage. You did the right thing moving him to the correct size.
I found a good food chart here: http://iansvivarium.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=75
According to it, a large rat is equivalent to a 1/2 pound rabbit :O The biggest rat I'd feed an adult is a weaner rat, same as a x-large mouse. The large rat is the third in from the right.
Haha, sorry to go on about the large rat, I'm just boggling that your friend thought that would FIT, let alone work as a staple diet. I do think you were sold a corn that was, well, a bit damaged. I'm glad to hear you'll be accepting the new one though :)
|
| QueenVic |
Posted - 13/06/2012 : 02:55:16
No changing his feeding pattern wont have affected it, but one big rat a month sounds odd for a corn snakes diet.. |
| Sta~ple |
Posted - 12/06/2012 : 23:34:06
We all get bad advise, with reptiles though it may not look like we are doing wrong when we are as there instinct is to never show any weakness or illness. It could have been anything that killed him, something unpreventable like a heart attack, you just cannot beat yourself up about it. Only think you can do is lots of reading before you get a new guy.
Temp sensor in the air is a no with a mat, it should touch the mat. Hot glue gun wont effect your snake if you let it dry first, I don't hot glue gun mine though but I think I should probably! Feeding pattern wouldn't have killed him. |
| alexbruxa |
Posted - 12/06/2012 : 22:21:12
quote:
Originally posted by Spreebok
So sorry to hear about your loss. Sometimes, these things just happen, plenty of people have had seemingly healthy snakes that have just been found dead suddenly, sadly you were just unlucky enough ti witness it, which is never a nice thing.
Best thing to do is get the postmortem done, so you can have some closure at least. It could have been unavoidable for all you know, something wrong with the snake itself that was just waiting to go off.
Your friend gave you bad advice, and I question his care if he keeps different species together, but that's done now, you know not to pay attention to what he says from now on.
As has been said, don't panic about the gift snake. Like I said, it could have been something ticking away for all you know, and besides a few things to iron out, your care seems fine, and you genuinely care for your animals.
First off, get a thermostat and plug your mat into that. That will regulate your temperature for you, to ensure it stays constant and won't be too cold or over heat. You'll also need a digital thermometer, which you can get on ebay for about £2 - £3, and they work very well, but the temperature sensor has to remain on the mat, alongside the thermostat probe. I personally like to hotglue these in place. Some people pshaw and egt a bit up themselves when you mention thermostats, and I always find my respect drops for those people, especially if they're in a position where new keepers will come to them with questions and seeking advice. Such a simple but essential piece of kit, and these people are balancing on a knifes edge and it's their snakes lives on the line!
I've gone off topic, but I'm sure you get what I'm saying!
ALso, large/jumbo mice for adults corns are about the size you want to feed, my mind boggles as to how an adult could fit a large rat in, I fed a large adult I have a small rat once and he barely fit it in!
Sadly, my temp sensor was always up in the air. Big mistake? It was usually indicating 22 to 26 C. I assumed it must have been a bit hotter right on the mat, where my snake would usually rest. Should the temp be always the same? And if I hot glue it, wouldn't it affect my snake? As for feeding pattern, as soon as I got him I changed it, could that contribute to his death? I switched from a big rat once a month to a small mice every 7-10 days. Sorry for all these questions, I'm getting a bit crazy here. |
| alexbruxa |
Posted - 12/06/2012 : 22:11:49
quote:
Originally posted by paulie78
quote:
Originally posted by alexbruxa
quote:
Originally posted by kev 5
sorry for your loss. try not to beat yourself up to much, you we're obviously given bad advice
Thanks. I'm devastated, I should have looked into this more instead of just blindly following the advice.
We've all been the victims of bad or irresposnible advice in the past you arent the first and certainly wont be the last research is soo important and second most important thing is getting your setup right from the off eg making sure you have the right kind of heat and ensureing its controlled by a stat everyone is here to help and this forum is an invaluable resource
I will come back to the forum for sure, once I'm ready to get a new little guy. Thank you so much for your advice. |
| alexbruxa |
Posted - 12/06/2012 : 22:10:00
quote:
Originally posted by oakleyman18
Aw no, this is heartbreaking reading this  My sympathies to you.. Can't have been easy to watch it happen infront of you.
However I don't think the bath would have killed him, it certainly wouldn't cause him to suffocate.
A couple of points on previous care tips: 1 large rat is far too much for a corn. Co-habbing with other corns is risky enough, to co-hab with a python and a Boa is a terrible decision, this would have severely stressed him out. Baths are fine for digestion, and shouldn't affect snakie too much, so long as it's not done too often. Temps should be monitored at floor level, air temps aren't an accurate enough indication of temps where the snake is (on the floor).
As to what happened then, I don't know honestly..! I can't think what would cause a snake to suffocate suddenly, perhaps ingesting some bedding.. But aspen isn't as bad as things like beech chips for that kind of risk.
Honestly, it sounds as though you really cared for snakie, and it certainly doesn't sound like your fault, anything that's happened. The Post mortem should reveal what went wrong, but as everyone has said, don't think it was your fault. I wish more people cared as much for their animals as you do. x
Hey, thanks for that. Yep it was terrible. So it was burying him, cleaning his tank and getting rid of any extra supplies I had for him. Thanks so much for your tips, I'm sure it will come useful one day, right now I'm feeling too guilty to get another snake. I will for sure, in a while. Not doing post mortem as spoke to the vet and apparently I kept it in the room temp for too long and the results wouldn't be a 100% accurate, especially that he looked absolutely normal, no lumps, bumps, injuries, mouth/nose discharge. My fault again, couldn't bare to just put it in the box in the fridge, just curled it up and left in its tank instead.
I have now buried it under a tree.
I have no idea how he could swallow any bedding as I fed him on the floor. Also, given the stress caused by other snakes previously, could that contribute to his death? I have a video of him from right before his death, I was hoping to show it to the vet in the morning. None of the keepers I showed it to today have seen this behavior before. How do I upload it here? Thanks . |
| Spreebok |
Posted - 12/06/2012 : 21:01:10
So sorry to hear about your loss. Sometimes, these things just happen, plenty of people have had seemingly healthy snakes that have just been found dead suddenly, sadly you were just unlucky enough ti witness it, which is never a nice thing.
Best thing to do is get the postmortem done, so you can have some closure at least. It could have been unavoidable for all you know, something wrong with the snake itself that was just waiting to go off.
Your friend gave you bad advice, and I question his care if he keeps different species together, but that's done now, you know not to pay attention to what he says from now on.
As has been said, don't panic about the gift snake. Like I said, it could have been something ticking away for all you know, and besides a few things to iron out, your care seems fine, and you genuinely care for your animals.
First off, get a thermostat and plug your mat into that. That will regulate your temperature for you, to ensure it stays constant and won't be too cold or over heat. You'll also need a digital thermometer, which you can get on ebay for about £2 - £3, and they work very well, but the temperature sensor has to remain on the mat, alongside the thermostat probe. I personally like to hotglue these in place. Some people pshaw and egt a bit up themselves when you mention thermostats, and I always find my respect drops for those people, especially if they're in a position where new keepers will come to them with questions and seeking advice. Such a simple but essential piece of kit, and these people are balancing on a knifes edge and it's their snakes lives on the line!
I've gone off topic, but I'm sure you get what I'm saying!
ALso, large/jumbo mice for adults corns are about the size you want to feed, my mind boggles as to how an adult could fit a large rat in, I fed a large adult I have a small rat once and he barely fit it in! |
| marc_sg |
Posted - 12/06/2012 : 20:31:11
Dont panic about the present snake. Take it and look after it. Now ur on here any problems there are a lot of people on here that will answer ur questions |
| paulie78 |
Posted - 12/06/2012 : 15:01:14
quote:
Originally posted by alexbruxa
quote:
Originally posted by kev 5
sorry for your loss. try not to beat yourself up to much, you we're obviously given bad advice
Thanks. I'm devastated, I should have looked into this more instead of just blindly following the advice.
We've all been the victims of bad or irresposnible advice in the past you arent the first and certainly wont be the last research is soo important and second most important thing is getting your setup right from the off eg making sure you have the right kind of heat and ensureing its controlled by a stat everyone is here to help and this forum is an invaluable resource |
| MissSnakeHandler |
Posted - 12/06/2012 : 14:57:42
awwwh this is sooo sad! im sorry for your loss! , i know as well as everyone else that co-habiting corns with different species is a BIG no no! . i cant imagine how you are feeling.. but something good comes out of something bad, and the good thing is , there are soo many people on this forum that know their stuff! and have given you some really good advice.
so the good thing to come out of this is you've learned alot more than what you did know about these snakes and not to give them stress by putting them in with a python and a boa! whoever told you that was ok was a douch bag ! and it annoys me because their are so many people out there giving people the wrong advice when it comes to the care, and wellbeing of corns that it just cause big mistakes. but dont blame yourself, :) but hey you can now focus on looking after your other one.. and like everyone else has said if in doubt ask the question on here!
the corn snake forum is AWESOME!!! :) x |
| marc_sg |
Posted - 12/06/2012 : 14:38:04
Dont panic about the present snake. Take it and look after it. Now ur on here any problems there are a lot of people on here that will answer ur questions |
| oakleyman18 |
Posted - 12/06/2012 : 14:26:12
Aw no, this is heartbreaking reading this My sympathies to you.. Can't have been easy to watch it happen infront of you.
However I don't think the bath would have killed him, it certainly wouldn't cause him to suffocate.
A couple of points on previous care tips: 1 large rat is far too much for a corn. Co-habbing with other corns is risky enough, to co-hab with a python and a Boa is a terrible decision, this would have severely stressed him out. Baths are fine for digestion, and shouldn't affect snakie too much, so long as it's not done too often. Temps should be monitored at floor level, air temps aren't an accurate enough indication of temps where the snake is (on the floor).
As to what happened then, I don't know honestly..! I can't think what would cause a snake to suffocate suddenly, perhaps ingesting some bedding.. But aspen isn't as bad as things like beech chips for that kind of risk.
Honestly, it sounds as though you really cared for snakie, and it certainly doesn't sound like your fault, anything that's happened. The Post mortem should reveal what went wrong, but as everyone has said, don't think it was your fault. I wish more people cared as much for their animals as you do. x |
| smart bunny |
Posted - 12/06/2012 : 13:40:03
Awww no, such a shame this happened right before your birthday xx |
| alexbruxa |
Posted - 12/06/2012 : 13:03:27
thanks guys for all your support. |
| danny |
Posted - 12/06/2012 : 12:44:40
sorry for your loss well if matey has got you a snake for your birthday you no what to do now and give him/her twice the love and care :}
all the best |
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