| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| tony81 |
Posted - 05/02/2012 : 15:06:09
got a 2 and a half year old 3 ft long miami corn that has had a lot of problems regurgitating since we got him. He doesnt seem to be able to hold down the right size food, so for the last 6 months he has been on rat pups (3 at a time). Sometimes he will feed every 7 days, other times every 14 days but now he seems to poo and then regurg about 3 days after eating.
we have double checked that temps are fine, viv is clean, water is always clean, its a good food source, hes not unduly stressed has plenty of hides, plants etc. our 2 females eat food from the same place, and live in the same closely monitored environment (all in seperate vivs) and are absolutely fine - they have never regurged, ever.
he seems perfectly fine within himself, never seems obviously poorly in any way; he just doesnt grow as well as the others (one of our females is a year younger and is the same size as him) and he pukes often.
is there any advice anyone can give me, does anyone have a clue what could be wrong with him?
thanks for reading! |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Auld Baldy |
Posted - 16/02/2012 : 15:26:01
I posted this as a possible explanation to try and explain my reasoning behind the persistent regurge of what is not a healthy Corn Snake. The image is just for reference to general anatomical lay out.
As I said, I am not a vet but it is obvious that its system cannot handle normal food items and posted a suggestion to give it a chance to try and recover.
I don't have a clue on rattle snake/ kingsnake wars but obviously they were designed by nature to cope with it as long as they are healthy.
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| mikerichards |
Posted - 16/02/2012 : 11:18:05
quote:
Originally posted by Auld Baldy
First off, I am not a vet and this is my interpretation of the process in layman terms. The illustration is a general reference image.
To add to number of food items issue, here's a representative diagram of a snake's internal anatomy. Note the relative size of the stomach, it is comparatively small in relation to the overall length. It is not a big sock which can be stuffed with multiple prey and be expected to process them all in one go or in sequence like a conveyor belt.
In a hungry healthy snake, the digestive juices will be at optimum strength for digesting one (possibly two smaller) normal prey item. That is, breaking down the fur and skin before passing the meat nutrients down into the small intestine for absorbtion and the remaining waste into poop. The skeleton will be one of the last thing to get the breakdown treatment. This will obviously deplete the efficiency of the remaining gastric juices. Further food items which have been 'stacked up' will arrive, not be able to be started on the first stages of break down and basically cause indigestion. No snake Alka-Seltzer so this indigestible food starts to go off and begins to rot, the snake will do the only thing it can and regurge.
Instead of trying to feed by volume, go back to one food item every 10 days that the snake can manage, even if it is smaller than normally expected. Do this for a month or so until things settle down. After that, move up to the next size but still keep it as a single item. Repeat and keep at it in size steps until up to normal sized prey for the size of snake. This would be my suggestion as long as there were no other underlying health problems. The snake's system has obviously taken a battering and needs a bit of time to recover to good condition. Start keeping a record of the weight before feeding and maybe stick to mice and see how things go.
HTH.
PS. Have you taken him to a vet for an expert opinion?
For arguements sake, saying the stomach is not big enough, how does a kingsnake then deal with a rattlesnake that isnt much different in size??
Also, incidentally, stomach size wise, even if your pic was accurate to ratio etc, its a 16 inch snake with a 2 inch stomach!!!!
A lot of snakes are more than capable of dealing with multiple prey items efficiently.
A snakes stomach can and does expand to deal with the food that it contains, it does deal with them in a sort of conveyor belt style, but whilst in the stomach, all the food is being dealt with at once, its just the first bit of food gets dealt with faster. |
| mikerichards |
Posted - 15/02/2012 : 06:01:07
quote:
Originally posted by nickyff
so a pup and a wiener aren't the same thing then?
I've noticed significant variation in the size of 'large' mice depending on where i buy them from- one of the shops I use only stocks pinks, fuzzies, 'small'mice, 'large' mice and then they go straight to these rat wiener thingies I've got, which as mentioned are still taking up freezer space- some of them are twice the size of what that particular shop calls a 'large' mouse..it's a big difference.
so then I went to P@H and got some 'jumbo' mice which are a tad smaller/about the same size as the rat wieners from the first shop..
I've never seen rat pups listed in any of the shops I go to- I assumed it was just a different name for the same thing..
I remember when sharon was on pinkies that they varied a LOT as well- within the same tub I would often find thAt the smallest pink would be less than half the size of the biggest one.
when it's all new to you, and you worry about doing things right, inconsistency in food sizes can be very confusing!!
oh! *lightbulb* ...-might it actually be 'weaner'?? ie the ratlet has been weaned onto solid food?
you pretty much got it in the end there. Its all about their life cycle. When both mice and rats are born, they are pinkies and pups respectively, they stay naked for about the first week, in which time they can put on quite a lot of weight, depending on how big the litter is, once they have fur, they are fuzzies, rat fuzzies are harder to get hold of than mice for some reason, again, they put on a lot of weight and grow a lot until they begin to wean off milk and onto hard food, can be anwhere between 3-4 weeks, and 8 weeks, hence small weaners, and large ones. Small of either would be the next stage, and throughout adulthood its done largely on weight.
Hopefully thats shed some light for you. |
| Auld Baldy |
Posted - 15/02/2012 : 05:29:32
First off, I am not a vet and this is my interpretation of the process in layman terms. The illustration is a general reference image.
To add to number of food items issue, here's a representative diagram of a snake's internal anatomy. Note the relative size of the stomach, it is comparatively small in relation to the overall length. It is not a big sock which can be stuffed with multiple prey and be expected to process them all in one go or in sequence like a conveyor belt.
In a hungry healthy snake, the digestive juices will be at optimum strength for digesting one (possibly two smaller) normal prey item. That is, breaking down the fur and skin before passing the meat nutrients down into the small intestine for absorbtion and the remaining waste into poop. The skeleton will be one of the last thing to get the breakdown treatment. This will obviously deplete the efficiency of the remaining gastric juices. Further food items which have been 'stacked up' will arrive, not be able to be started on the first stages of break down and basically cause indigestion. No snake Alka-Seltzer so this indigestible food starts to go off and begins to rot, the snake will do the only thing it can and regurge.
Instead of trying to feed by volume, go back to one food item every 10 days that the snake can manage, even if it is smaller than normally expected. Do this for a month or so until things settle down. After that, move up to the next size but still keep it as a single item. Repeat and keep at it in size steps until up to normal sized prey for the size of snake. This would be my suggestion as long as there were no other underlying health problems. The snake's system has obviously taken a battering and needs a bit of time to recover to good condition. Start keeping a record of the weight before feeding and maybe stick to mice and see how things go.
HTH.
PS. Have you taken him to a vet for an expert opinion?
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| mikerichards |
Posted - 08/02/2012 : 20:52:01
quote:
Originally posted by Mort13
I happen to be feeding some of my snakes tonight and have fuzzies and a rat pup defrosting so I thought I'd take a pic.
Rat pup on the left. Mouse fuzzy on the right:
Shame CM has been banned, i really dont think he realises how hard it is being right!! 
Nice comparison Mort, spot on.
To the original problem, what are the living conditions, i know you say they are right, but we need to know numbers.
Also are the snakes in an area of high traffic? is it noisy around them a lot?
For now, move up a size, but back on mice, 1 medium mouse every 7 days, no more than that for now. See how he keeps that down. If there is nothing physically wrong, then its highly likely that there is an out side influence.
Out of interest, of the 3 rat pups that you feed him, how many does he regurge?? i would have thought after 3 days, it would either be 1 or 2, or a mix of both!! |
| SexyBear77 |
Posted - 08/02/2012 : 20:37:37
I'd be inclined to send off a fecal sample to the vet for testing, just in case. Reptoboost in the water will help settle the gut flora in between regurges and also get nutrients into the snake. |
| Georgina |
Posted - 08/02/2012 : 19:14:25
now that we have determined the size of a rat pup, im sure one the experts will be along to answer the original question. i hope that your corn starts feeding properly again soon x |
| SexyBear77 |
Posted - 08/02/2012 : 18:55:01
quote:
Originally posted by Mort13
I happen to be feeding some of my snakes tonight and have fuzzies and a rat pup defrosting so I thought I'd take a pic.
Rat pup on the left. Mouse fuzzy on the right:
Excellent!  |
| Mort13 |
Posted - 08/02/2012 : 18:52:45
I happen to be feeding some of my snakes tonight and have fuzzies and a rat pup defrosting so I thought I'd take a pic.
Rat pup on the left. Mouse fuzzy on the right:
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| mikerichards |
Posted - 08/02/2012 : 12:00:54
My post was deleted where i explained it!! CM is wrong again though. Hes posted a link to 14-30 day old rats, they are fuzzies/weaners, not rat pups.
Rat pups are from birth to about 7 days old, before they get fur, which is usually in the first week. Weaners are as mentioned, when they move from mothers milk to hard food, which is between 3 weeks and 8 weeks old, hence why there can be such a huge difference in size.
A proper rat pup is about the size of a fuzzy mouse, sometimes though, if the rat has a small litter, then they can be quite a bit larger than one from a large litter. |
| Sta~ple |
Posted - 08/02/2012 : 08:02:02
Sorry guys, I know that small weaners rats are the same sort of size as jumbos so presumed the next size down for rats would be the same as large and by looking at the chart on here http://i37.tinypic.com/jtw3zs.jpg, there doing it by weight, guessing he must get big rat pups then or maybe they meant fluff or has different names of stuff or something? I've never seen rat pinkies in my life. |
| nickyff |
Posted - 08/02/2012 : 02:23:57
so a pup and a wiener aren't the same thing then?
I've noticed significant variation in the size of 'large' mice depending on where i buy them from- one of the shops I use only stocks pinks, fuzzies, 'small'mice, 'large' mice and then they go straight to these rat wiener thingies I've got, which as mentioned are still taking up freezer space- some of them are twice the size of what that particular shop calls a 'large' mouse..it's a big difference.
so then I went to P@H and got some 'jumbo' mice which are a tad smaller/about the same size as the rat wieners from the first shop..
I've never seen rat pups listed in any of the shops I go to- I assumed it was just a different name for the same thing..
I remember when sharon was on pinkies that they varied a LOT as well- within the same tub I would often find thAt the smallest pink would be less than half the size of the biggest one.
when it's all new to you, and you worry about doing things right, inconsistency in food sizes can be very confusing!!
oh! *lightbulb* ...-might it actually be 'weaner'?? ie the ratlet has been weaned onto solid food? |
| lotabob |
Posted - 07/02/2012 : 19:51:44
I found this picture of Spot 'cuddling' a rat pup in July 2011, now I dont know much about the rat in question, he didnt hang around fto leave me his vital statistics but I do know at this time Spot was 96 Grams in June when I started giving him them as they were too small for a Boa.
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| gmac |
Posted - 07/02/2012 : 19:12:49
seen as the poblem has resolved (on the forum) I shall reopen this one.
I also googled rat pups but couldnt be bothered reading any of the 20billion million hits, i decided to look in the freeser instead. I dont have a single rat pup bigger than a small mouse :D |
| gmac |
Posted - 07/02/2012 : 00:41:09
locking another thread as seems we cant have a health thread now.
My apologies to Tony81 |
| smiffy89 |
Posted - 07/02/2012 : 00:23:42
centric email a mod for petes sake if you have an issue,dont keep hijacking threads im sick of seeing your name in arguments.
take a soddin chill pill |
| lotabob |
Posted - 07/02/2012 : 00:07:10
Tony, could you weigh your rats for me please. See there is a chart on the net showing the rat sizes but when I buy rat pups at my reptile shop they are tiny little things, basically when they are just starting to get fur so to avoid any confusion as to the amount of food that is been fed just check the weight or if you dont have scales measure the rat minus the tail to get an idea of the size.
I would think rather than the amount of food by mass been an isssue its probably going to be the queue of rats on the way to been digested, they dont sit in the stomach in one lump they will queue one after the next. Also if its repeated regurges it may require some time to settle the stomach so I would recommend a few weeks without any food. Also a good thing to do is just triple check your temperatures, make sure everything is as it should be, if you can rule that out it makes finding the cause a little easier. |
| CentricMalteser85 |
Posted - 07/02/2012 : 00:00:21
Excuse isnt this a personal attack with the words "wrong again" at the bottom when also another member had stated a similar thing.
As quoted here
quote:
Originally posted by Sta~ple
1 rat pup is the sameish as 1 large mouse, so 3 is way too much! Most adult corns only get fed 1 large mouse.
What was said to me, oh personal attacks not needed and comments like "wrong again" which incites arguing is not needed, ok mikey?!
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by CentricMalteser85
Nicky is right
3 rat pups for a 3ft corn in one feeding period is overdoing especially since rats also have a higher fat content that mice
I have a 4ft corn and he takes 1 large mouse, once every 7 - 10 days which is sufficient
the regurge is because you are feeding him TOO MUCH, and snakes are like food dustbins and they dont have the capacity to think about the consequences.
what is worrying is not only you feedin 3 rat pups at a time but sometimes every 7 days, so in 2 weeks he could have potentially eaten what mine would eat in a month and a half!
advice - cut the feeding down to one large mouse every 7-10 days, avoid feeding during shedding, avoid handling for 72 hours after feeding
quote:
Originally posted by nickyff
i don't know not nuffin not really, but- isnt 3x rat pups rather a lot for a 3ft snake? ive got what were called 'rat weaners' in my freezer just sitting there, cos punkin (3ft and about 6-8 inches ish) wouldnt touch them..(not much bigger but I think they smell too different from his preferred jumbo mousies)
hm- not really added anything to what gmac said....
(removes oar)
Originally posted by mikerichards
^^^^ Wrong as normal
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| smiffy89 |
Posted - 06/02/2012 : 23:59:07
quote:
Originally posted by mikerichards
quote:
Originally posted by kdlang
It does sound like he is regurging due to having too many prey items at once. I would follow what gmac says. Maybe you could post some pics of your snake, ideally while eating so we can get an idea of his size.
A rat pup is tiny. I am feeding them to one of my corns at the moment who is long but slender. He has gone weeks without eating but has eaten twice in a row with a rat pup. Going to move him up to 2 next week then hopefully try something bigger.
Sorry to thread hijack but while we are on the subject. I was wondering if nutritionally a rat pup is better, worse or the same as a large mouse fluff or small mouse. I'm sure I read somewhere that pinkie mice don't have as much calcium or nutrients as older mice and I was wondering if it's the same with rat pups.
they are similar, mice are actually fattier than rats body weight percentage wise until you get to large mice size and equivalent, i did find a sheet with all the info on when i had a row with GP about it ages ago.baby rodents are never going to have the same calcium levels are adult and sub adult, they just havent developed enough.
thats why i said not to start the debate lol was a massive topic at the time ,if you were there you would know how heated it got.either way lets just try and focus on keeping on the topic. |
| CentricMalteser85 |
Posted - 06/02/2012 : 23:57:21
Sorry to burst your bubble yet again mikerichards! but rat pup is based on interpretation
Guess what, I googled rat pup and went to images
and this is the link
https://micedirect.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=22&products_id=37
look at the image AND the weight, which by the way is a similar weight from a medium to large mouse!
Therefore based on the link and information above I am in fact right!
Therefore based on the information in one of many links I could bore you with, feeding 3 rat pups equilevant of 3 large mice, is too much.
As does the following quote from another member also agrees. Just for you mike it's just below
quote:
Originally posted by Sta~ple
1 rat pup is the sameish as 1 large mouse, so 3 is way too much! Most adult corns only get fed 1 large mouse
By the way I also noticed Mike, that you didnt state that the comment above by that member was wrong, which would suggest a personal attack on me, ermm.... is that allowed? let me check............ oh no it's not
thankyou for your time
quote:
Originally posted by mikerichards
What?? A rat pup is nothing compared to a large mouse, not even close. You lot do realise that a rat pup is a baby rat with no hair, so at most about an inch and a half long, maybe twice the size of a pinky. A 3ft snake eating 3 rat pups if anything is not enough, but then it depends on its body weight also.
Mr Malteser, you are talking rubbish again, whats more worrying than what you are worrying about, is that you have no idea about which you are worrying. He is not over feeding at all, unless the snake is 3ft and about 50g, in which case, food is the least of its problems.
I was feeding 6 month old corns one rat pup each, and 2 by the time they were 8 or 9 months old, so feeding a 3ft 3 isnt a problem, other than its too little.
A rat pup is the equivalent of roughly a small to medium mouse fluff, a small weaner is the equivalent of a large mouse, infact, i had bigger large mice than i did rat weaners until recently!!!!
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