| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Thante |
Posted - 03/11/2011 : 22:53:16
So, Cherry is ill again it would seem. It seems that the first snake i ever got, is one of the most problem animals i've ever owned. Typical :P
For the last few weeks she has developed a lump on the underside of her neck, took her to the vets who gave her injections. But its come back, so i went back to the vets tonight. Yet again, surprise surprise ..... they have no idea whats causing the problem ... yay.
The best he can guess is that its related to the eye problem she had last year (that caused her eye to be removed) they think that removing the eye was removing the effect not the cause. And perhaps she is still suffering from it, getting massive build ups of liquid at the back of her neck (visible when her mouth is open). But this is a maybe.
Still no real sign of infection so peoples bets still seem to be on the idea that she is producing more tears then she should at a stupidly fast rate that have no place to drain to. But again the vet stressed that this is a very big maybe. but the only reason he had.
She may have to be on injections for the rest of her life :( which is depressing. But behaviour wise, hunger and shedding she is a perfectly normal snake. |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| awlred |
Posted - 17/11/2011 : 09:46:26
Glad to hear Cherry is on the mend, hope all is well at the vets |
| mikerichards |
Posted - 16/11/2011 : 16:44:00
just looked it up, technically husbandry is care and cultivation, so we were both right!! |
| Thante |
Posted - 16/11/2011 : 16:37:43
I really did think the term husbandry referred to breading as well. :s I studied environmental science and we used the term a lot when talking about selective breading and livestock.
Don't worry she's a pet, its tequila i'm hoping to get butters from, all thats wrong with him is he is terrified of his own shadow.
As for how cherry is doing now, the lump has all but gone and she is back on large mice :D will be at the vet again tomorrow, but i think it will be her last visit. |
| mikerichards |
Posted - 16/11/2011 : 13:31:02
nope, husbandry is the general care of the animal!! something i feel you have nothing to worry about!
There are lots of different reasons why a snake, or any animal has problems during its life, whilst i wont rule out bad genetics, its highly unlikely. Most of the time genetic anomalies would consist of Stargazing, kinks in the spine, missing eyes or blindness, missing stomachs.
usually excessive in breeding results in too much of something, or not enough of something.
I very highly doubt that this is caused by inbreeding, i think its more a case of a simple complication, and i doubt you would have any problems from her if you did breed. I wont say do breed her, because personally i wouldnt, however, the chances are it would be fine, but its best not to take the chance.
|
| Thante |
Posted - 15/11/2011 : 20:01:55
I thought husbandry refereed to breeding and raising animals. I'm pretty sure that cherry is the result of bad breeding, perhaps being the product of inbreeding or just a mix of bad genes. Which is why i don't want to breed from her, even if it is just an anomaly and her parents where fine i'm not willing to risk it. |
| mikerichards |
Posted - 15/11/2011 : 17:43:02
Sorry, snakes are not more intelligent than cats or dogs, no matter how stupid the cat or dog is, they simply do not have the brain capacity to be so.
Talking from a lot of experience, creating a bond with a snake is one sided, snakes may recognise you, but thats about as far as it goes.
People dont bother with the 'replace' attitude with us, its pointless, over the last few years our vets bill has exceeded 3k for all our animals!!!!
Thante, you said in your post that Cherry's husbandry is terrible. Am pretty sure you either miss understand the word, or have just miss used it!! |
| Sta~ple |
Posted - 15/11/2011 : 13:02:48
What have you been smoking whilst handling hatchies, or what have you been letting the hatchie smoke? lol |
| Daniel_G |
Posted - 15/11/2011 : 11:17:33
I think that a snake is much easier to get attached to than a cat or dog.
They're cleaner, smarter (Well, smarter than my dog and cats) and much cooler. Plus, the hatchies are so much more "affectionate" towards people, happily curling up in a pocket (Talking from previous experience)
Some people simply can't grasp that, just thinking 'if it isn't fluffy, it isn't cute'
And, as staple said, they live longer. Worth much more than a cat or dog. |
| Sta~ple |
Posted - 15/11/2011 : 09:26:30
quote:
Originally posted by Thante
quote:
Originally posted by Sta~ple
You've missed out loads of names there Mike lol!
I do really hope Cherry gets better though for you, a lot of people seem to have the attitude of "it's only a snake, I can get a new one if it dies cheaper than going to the vets" :( Cherry has been lucky to get an owner as caring as you.
I hate it when people view snakes like that. My OH had a friend stay recently who said pretty much exact that. "How much did it cost? Just get a new one". Just because i don't want something small and furry as a pet doesn't mean i care any less about her. I asked him what he would do if his cat was ill but apparently "thats different".
Yeah that is annoying :( Specially since snakes can live longer than cats and dogs, and you can get kittens and cats for free very easily lol. |
| Thante |
Posted - 15/11/2011 : 02:56:58
quote:
Originally posted by Sta~ple
You've missed out loads of names there Mike lol!
I do really hope Cherry gets better though for you, a lot of people seem to have the attitude of "it's only a snake, I can get a new one if it dies cheaper than going to the vets" :( Cherry has been lucky to get an owner as caring as you.
I hate it when people view snakes like that. My OH had a friend stay recently who said pretty much exact that. "How much did it cost? Just get a new one". Just because i don't want something small and furry as a pet doesn't mean i care any less about her. I asked him what he would do if his cat was ill but apparently "thats different".
|
| Thante |
Posted - 15/11/2011 : 02:52:19
quote:
Originally posted by mikerichards
yeah there are a few forums which have more than their fair share of trolls!!
Have a look through some of my older posts, especially the one where someone ( i cant believe i forgot the numpties name!!) tried to tell me that cornsnakes only came from death valley, ah, limpy, ilovemypets88, he was quoting stuff direct from Wiki, just cutting and pasting, not even rewriting it!! I had a bit of fun with him!
Its quite rare to have a cornsnake that is constantly requiring vet treatment, or any snake for that matter, and most stuff is down to poor husbandry.
I quite like knowing as much as possible about illnesses, diseases etc, i find it fascinating!! It also helps with situations like this!
i used to use some arty forums full of idiots. Used to love running rings around people talking rubbish, i have to admit i only really go there now to laugh at the trash people are telling each other. So i guess places like that have there place, humour.
Sadly that i know, when i first got cherry i did intend to breed from her. Very quickly decided against that idea, she is just a pet now. I have a feeling her husbandry is terrible, but i'm quite happy to have her as a pet and look after her as best i can.
I'm trying to learn as best i can, and although i'm not stupid, there is a lot of information out there. I love to read about it all, but remembering it is another matter. I find the anatomy side of things much more interesting, and in fact easier to understand. |
| Sta~ple |
Posted - 12/11/2011 : 09:55:38
You've missed out loads of names there Mike lol!
I do really hope Cherry gets better though for you, a lot of people seem to have the attitude of "it's only a snake, I can get a new one if it dies cheaper than going to the vets" :( Cherry has been lucky to get an owner as caring as you. |
| mikerichards |
Posted - 11/11/2011 : 22:44:33
yeah there are a few forums which have more than their fair share of trolls!!
Have a look through some of my older posts, especially the one where someone ( i cant believe i forgot the numpties name!!) tried to tell me that cornsnakes only came from death valley, ah, limpy, ilovemypets88, he was quoting stuff direct from Wiki, just cutting and pasting, not even rewriting it!! I had a bit of fun with him!
Its quite rare to have a cornsnake that is constantly requiring vet treatment, or any snake for that matter, and most stuff is down to poor husbandry.
I quite like knowing as much as possible about illnesses, diseases etc, i find it fascinating!! It also helps with situations like this! |
| Thante |
Posted - 11/11/2011 : 21:16:29
Don't worry i don't mean you when i talk about people being rude :P. I use forums enough to know that on 90% of them your just a target no matter what you say and do. when i first looked into getting a snake and soon after i got her i was exploring 3 different snake forums. I was amazed and simply how nice the people on this one are, i don't think i've ever used such a friendly forum, there are spats here and there but nothing on the scale of trolling and abuse you get on others. So i now only use this one.
I am relatively new to keeping snakes, and the experience with cherry has given me an even steeper learning curve then i would have normally had. Thankfully Tequila has never had a single problem so i know its not all snakes, just that i was a little unlucky with my choice when picking a first snake (not that i would change her), haha. |
| Okeetee Mick |
Posted - 11/11/2011 : 20:11:43
Well I for one have enjoyed this thread and learned a lot, thank you. |
| mikerichards |
Posted - 11/11/2011 : 17:22:55
Now you mention it......my way is right!!! ha ha! I jest.
I know what you mean, i find it very frustrating when people who clearly know nothing about what they are talking about, go on and try and sound clever and get people to do the wrong thing, there are a few on here like that, no names of course, but am sure you can work it out.
Dont get me wrong, i am not always right, far from it, but if i dont know for sure, i tend not to post, as its a waste of both of our times, stuff like this though, i know a fair bit about. I have been involved with snakes on and off for about 24 years now, i have spoken to a lot of people, vets included about stuff, and through Kate (partner), i have access to huge amounts of resources and info, so stuff i dont know, she can find out.
I do google a lot of stuff, mainly to make sure i am right before i waffle on for hours about it, but i only ever look for fact sheets either from the company making the drug, or a company that has tested it, if you look for the right things, they are there.
The problem is, people assume that an antibiotic is an antibiotic, which is not always the case, marbocyl and Baytril are very very similar, but they work slightly differently and their supporting agents are different too, part of the problem with baytril is that the solution for injection is quite alkaline, which is where i would think the necrosis comes from, and reptile body tissue is much more delicate than mammalian tissue.
As for different ones, they are the 2 main ones, so i wouldnt bother looking at others, everyone i read about or speak to uses marbocyl, which i also use, so if i was you i would go for that.
To give you an idea, you couldnt pay me to use injectable baytril on any of my snakes, whereas i have spent a fortune in the last few years on marbocyl, we even give it to the rabbits!!
I am not someone who is gonna force you to do things my way, they are purely my experiences which i can use to help someone who is in a similar situation to what i may have been in, if i didnt comment here, and you came back and said the snakes skin has sloughed, i would feel bad because i knew it could happen and didnt say anything!!
I am a horrendous passenger seat driver, i would rather say something and it not be needed, than not say something and it be needed!!
I know on occasions i come across as being rude, whether you meant me or not, but its rarely the case, its usually taken the wrong way by someone who knows they have done something stupid!! I say things how they are!! |
| Thante |
Posted - 11/11/2011 : 16:40:16
I hate the way its one rule for animals another for human, let an animal suffer in a way you wouldn't expect a human to.
I've taken on board what you have said, and what the vet has said. If posable i'm going to avoid having the Baytril injections again, but at the same time i'm going to continue to use this vet for now as even if he doesn't know the risks of this particular drug he is far more educated then i am in these matters and much more so then some of the other "specialists" i've seen. The other local reptile "specialist" in my aria took Cherry out her box and said "Oh, he a pretty colour. What is he?" ..... if you can't recognise a common corn snake you defiantly not a reptile specialist, If this forum agreed with naming and shaming then that guy would be on my list.
If my current vet is unable to give Marbosyl or another reptile specific drug (dunno if there are any or what they are) then i will head back to Tarporly as they have my full trust when it comes to snakes. Its just a very hard place to get to when you can't drive.
I've decided to do this not just as you have given a full and detailed explanation, which has convinced me that you do know your facts, but also cuz you've scarred me ****less that i'm gonna go into cherrys tank and find a mess of blood and flesh. I have never taken advice over the internet of this sort, having always chosen to follow those in a medical profession with the grades and certificates to back it up. so i am still in doubt of my own decision, but the internet in general does nothing but teach people to be doubtful of each other. If it wasn't for the rude and insolent people who believe there way is the only way, i'm sure things would be different, but its so hard to work out those who are telling the truth from those who want to look and act smart. |
| mikerichards |
Posted - 11/11/2011 : 10:45:38
I understand what you are saying, and i also know there are lot of people who randomly spoutpoopthey heard from a mate who had a mate hear about something, i have also heard a lot of rubbish coming from so called experienced vets!!
The stuff i go on about here isnt for my benefit at all, it makes no odds to me whatsoever, i comment for other peoples benefit entirely.
I understand that you are not gonna take my advice over a vet, however, that doesnt make him right, they dont always know the full side effects of what they are giving, they cant, there is too much stuff to know, which is where Labs come in, and i have access to a full International Vet Lab through Kate, my partner, who deals with this kind of thing, drugs, dosing and side effects are part of their remit.
The problem is, Baytril is not designed for reptiles at all, it was developed before reptiles became a big hit, early 80's i believe, reptiles have a very different type of cell structure to mammals and this is why it causes problems. Marbosyl was developed for reptiles, it works the same way but with a slightly different mechanism.
I have had causes to give a few of my snakes antibiotic Jabs, including a few baby boas, i did the research, i spoke to vets and people who i know who deal with a lot of snakes, what i found out is that there have been a few cases within my circle of contacts where Baytril has not only causes tissue necrosis, but has caused the snake to slough its skin, not shed, its actual skin, down to and including some muscle.
Certainly that hasnt happened with every case, and i dont know what has happened in the run up to those cases, but i know the dosage wasnt wrong, but, it has happened, and as such it shouldnt be injected into reptiles, orally is fine, its a different transmission method, but subcut jabs are dangerous.
A lot of people use marbosyl now, and i havent heard of any cases of it causing tissue necrosis, and neither has my vet, so i personally think your vet told you that to placate you.
Funny thing is, if it was a human drug that caused that side effect, it would have been banned years ago! but because its animals, its an accepted side effect!! |
| Thante |
Posted - 10/11/2011 : 18:50:22
I don't want to come across as if i am neglecting your advice, trust me i am not, i'm taking it all onboard and have already acted on it. But nor am i the type of person to take all the advice given to me on the internet (if i had cherry would have died a year and a half ago) :P 9 out of 10 times people don't know what there talking about and make it up as they go along, or worse quoting incorrect websites (like wiki) to make themselves seem intelligent. please don't take this as be accusing you of lying. Its likely you may very well be that 1 in 10 who knows there stuff. but because of the high rate of fear mongers i always check with the professionals.
Thanks for telling me about the risk of Baytril.
I've just been and seen the vet again and spoke to him about the Baytril, he said that he understood the concern but not to worry. He is yet to have any negative side effects from administrating the drug. He explained that it can cause necrosis when the dosage is high or if it is doesn't disperse into the body properly. However she is on a very low dose, and he has never had a bad reaction in any snake. Where as he has in small mammals like hamsters and some lizards. I also asked about the drug you advised marbosyl, he backed you up saying that it was a very good drug for snakes, but also that it has the same chance of causing necrosis as Baytril.
However saying all this, she didn't receive an injection of either drug. Thankfully her treatment seems to have worked and the swelling is receding, before i asked my question he had decided to leave her for a week and see if she can finish healing on her own. So good news :D
He also took a couple of pictures as he is going to a conference next week for snake specialists and said he would ask around and see if anyone else had heard of the posable problems of using Baytril. |
| mikerichards |
Posted - 10/11/2011 : 17:54:32
Have a look here. First bit where is says about anti biotics. on the right, particularly where its more or less advising that baytril is given orally as its safer.
http://www.anapsid.org/resources/rxdose.html |
|
|
