| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| QueenVic |
Posted - 09/05/2011 : 20:34:18
Okay, so i cant get my head around corn snake genetics.
Is it based solely on het traits being paired to form a morph, but if there are no hets or het matches the hatchlings will be like one of the parents and het for the other?
If some one could explain simply id appriciate it!
Its all very confusing.
Also i have a male anery, is there anything i can breed him with to get a particular morph?
Cheers, and dont laugh if im way off! |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| mikerichards |
Posted - 21/05/2011 : 15:25:37
quote:
Originally posted by VicNCal
Yeah that box method is brilliant.
So, its much harder to get good morphs than I imagined lol
Depends on the morph! with morphs you can make you just need a pair of the single traits, or with hets, but with hets you have a much much less chance of getting visuals of the pair out.
Making the expensive multiple trait morphs is a long and very time consuming process. |
| Ailsa |
Posted - 21/05/2011 : 13:22:40
Genetics, hets, all so confusing when you don't understand snake breeding but hey ho I'll just keep reading and learning from all the posts. |
| QueenVic |
Posted - 21/05/2011 : 13:05:33
Yeah that box method is brilliant.
So, its much harder to get good morphs than I imagined lol |
| Invalid User |
Posted - 20/05/2011 : 23:49:39
I like the boxes explanation ^^^^^
That's how I first learnt (still leanring lol) and it really helped. |
| mikerichards |
Posted - 20/05/2011 : 20:56:55
quote:
Originally posted by VicNCal
Right, I think I have the basics of it now :)
So if they are both showing the trait, the hatchlings will too.
If they are both het for it, not showing it, there will be a chance the babies will show the trait or be het for it
It's all to do with chance really. (Please tell me if thats wrong haha!)
I have a new question,
If I have for example an Anery A and a normal that is het for Anery, there is a strong chance that some of the babies will be normals het for Anery (If that's correct...) Will it be definate that they are het, or is it literally a guessing game?
I just can't understand how you can know what they are het for if it's all chance...
The first bit is right, assuming that both parents are showing the SAME trait, like anery.
there is no chance involved, you get possibilities.
I will try and show you this....
This may confuse a little, but is essential, because there are 3 types of genes, recessive, dominant and co-dominant, they are denoted using cased letters, because recessive genes are always recessive to a dominant, they are denoted with a small letter this this 'a'.
A dominant or co dominant is denoted by a capital 'A'
Another thing to remember, is that het is short for heterozygous, which means both genes are different.
If you have two traits, a + b, the father is a visual 'a' and the mother is a visual 'b', then because they have two sets of traits (again, wrong wording, but keeps it simple) the father must be 'aa' and the mother 'bb', both traits passed to them by their parents match, so they are visually that trait.
Now, remembering that babies take one trait gene from each of the parents, you can safely assume that each baby will take 'a' from the father and 'b' from the mother.
Assume for now that 'a' = anery and 'b' = amelanistic
(in reality you can have them meaning whatever trait you want, as long as its recessive, for this excercise)
Ok, so baby has taken one trait from each parent, so now it possesses both 'a' and 'b', so would be 'ab' (remember father was 'aa' and mother was 'bb'
Now, both those traits are recessives, so the babies would look like normals, but carry the genes for amelanistic and anery, and as the genes are different, its known as a het (heterzygous).
Now, to extend it a little further, if you then breed those two snakes ( the 'ab' and 'ab') together, you take one gene from each of the parents, you then have babies that are 'aa' 'bb' so you have visual amels and aneries, you will also get normals and snows, but thats a little complicated now, especially how i have described it.
Thats how hets and visuals work, very roughly. once you start combining more than one trait, it gets complicated, as above!
Once you get the understanding of how it works, its a lot easier to work out multiple hets in your head.
Now, to blow your mind a little more, the whole chance thing....
Ok, you have a normal snake, father which is 'NN' (normal is dominant) and you have a mother that is het for amel so she is 'Na'.
Now, you take from each parent one of their traits, the easiest way to see it is to draw a little box, 2 boxes by 2 boxes, above the top boxes write the fathers traits, so 'N' above one and 'N' above the other, now down the left hand side, write 'N' next to the top box, and 'a' next to the bottom box.
You should end up with something like this
. \ N \ N
N / ./
a \ .\
Imagine there are lines there, and its a box, not my wonky box attempt, its pretty bad, but hopefully you get the idea.
Now, you take one trait from each parent, you have the boxes blank, you put the letters in there.....
\N \ N
N / NN / NN
a \ Na \ Na
Again, its a wonky box, but you get the idea.
Now, you can see that out of 4 babies you have 2 that are 'NN', they are completely normal, no hets.
You also have 2 babies that are 'Na' they are het amel
Now, the interesting bit, all 4 babies are normal, even though 2 of them are hets.
Now, this is where percentages come to play, and where chance becomes possibility, you have 4 babies, 2 are normal, 2 are hets, now, this is known as 50% hets, because EACH baby (not each litter) has the possibility of carrying that het, 50% infact!
Ok, gonna go one step further, mind melt time.
If you do the same box as above, but instead you have a father that is het amel so he is 'Na' and the mother is the same 'Na'
Now, you mix these and you get 'aa' 'Na' 'Na' and 'NN'
This is where it gets funky, your 'aa' is a visual Amel, you can see that, however, the rest of the litter are normals, denoted by the 'N' in their genes, and capital 'N' is dominant, so it over rules the small letter.
Now, you have 3 out of 4 babies that are normal, now, 2 of those 3 are carrying the Amel gene, the 'a' in their genetic makeup, but you cant see it as its over ruled by the 'N' dominant gene.
So... If 2 of the 3 babies are het, and the third isnt, you have a 66% CHANCE per baby that it is carrying the het trait!!!
Once you get your head around the basics, its really easy, promise, just read the books on it, and you can work it out.
Think thats enough for now!!!!! 
|
| gmac |
Posted - 20/05/2011 : 20:14:18
it is more than likely yes, but now way of knowing until your eggs incubate and hatch to see if shes he anery. Good luck |
| QueenVic |
Posted - 20/05/2011 : 20:12:58
So its more likely that espher will have hets..
I hope I get some surprises when they hatch lol |
| gmac |
Posted - 20/05/2011 : 17:32:08
if espher has no hets (unlikely though) then they would all be het anery |
| QueenVic |
Posted - 20/05/2011 : 16:31:53
Brilliant, thank you very much :)
If Espher (my normal) is not het for anything, will the babies all be normals with some of them having a chance of being het for anery? |
| gmac |
Posted - 20/05/2011 : 15:58:55
yes, the ones that are not aneries, will be normal het anery |
| QueenVic |
Posted - 20/05/2011 : 15:34:55
I see, so if any of my eggs hatch as Anery A's, the ones that are normal from the clutch will be definately het for Anery?
And if they are all normals that come out, will they all be normals het aneryA or..? |
| gmac |
Posted - 20/05/2011 : 15:22:26
anery A x het anery A you will get some Anery and some normal het anery |
| QueenVic |
Posted - 20/05/2011 : 15:19:17
Right, I think I have the basics of it now :)
So if they are both showing the trait, the hatchlings will too.
If they are both het for it, not showing it, there will be a chance the babies will show the trait or be het for it
It's all to do with chance really. (Please tell me if thats wrong haha!)
I have a new question,
If I have for example an Anery A and a normal that is het for Anery, there is a strong chance that some of the babies will be normals het for Anery (If that's correct...) Will it be definate that they are het, or is it literally a guessing game?
I just can't understand how you can know what they are het for if it's all chance... |
| eeji |
Posted - 18/05/2011 : 18:46:15
the even simpler answer:
for 99% of cornsnake morphs mum and dad both have to pass the morphed gene to the babies :) |
| QueenVic |
Posted - 18/05/2011 : 17:37:43
It's boggling my mind, but I love it haha!
Keep the explanations coming guys, this is great!
and yeah, thanks Mike that was a really good explanation.
And Eeji, you're still a little too technical for me, but im going to do some reading up on it now lol.
Every explanation sheds a little more light on this for me :D |
| mikerichards |
Posted - 16/05/2011 : 15:06:04
quote:
Originally posted by kdlang
quote:
Originally posted by mikerichards
This works for all traits, however, the normal never goes away, so for example, if you put a Snow to an anery, you are taking one trait from each, but, because each one of those is different, the baby looks normal, however, because its been given one trait from each parent, its het for amel AND anery.
I thought Snow to Anery would produce Anery het Amel babies.
That is a really good explanation tho Mike.
Ha Ha!! sorry, i meant amel to anery, i was thinking too far ahead of myself!! You are right though, snow to anery would be anery het amels.
My mistake, sorry. gonna correct it now! |
| vetdebbie |
Posted - 15/05/2011 : 10:15:48
snow to anery would indeed produce anery het amel babies |
| kdlang |
Posted - 15/05/2011 : 09:11:45
quote:
Originally posted by mikerichards
This works for all traits, however, the normal never goes away, so for example, if you put a Snow to an anery, you are taking one trait from each, but, because each one of those is different, the baby looks normal, however, because its been given one trait from each parent, its het for amel AND anery.
I thought Snow to Anery would produce Anery het Amel babies.
That is a really good explanation tho Mike. |
| eeji |
Posted - 14/05/2011 : 23:49:54
simple answer:
recessive to normal morphs: (99% of corn morphs) mum and dad both have to pass down the same copy of a mutant gene for a morph to be visible
dominant over normal morphs: (only one corn morph, Tessera) Only one parent has to pass down the mutant gene for a morph to be visible
codominant with normal genes: (no corn morphs are codom with normal) If one parent passes down a mutant gene it looks different to normal, if both parents pass down the same mutant gene it looks different to normal and different to if only one mutant gene is passed down. |
| mikerichards |
Posted - 14/05/2011 : 23:22:56
Ignoring the single trait that is possibly dominant, every other morph is a recessive or a mix of recessive traits.
Very simply, each snake has 2 sets of traits, one from the father one from the mother.
If those two traits match, you get a visual of that morph. If they dont, you get a normal, het (literally meaning the 2 traits dont match, but slightly more complicated)
So for example, you have an Amel Father and a Normal mother, you take one trait from each, so one Normal and one amel, amel is recessive to normal, therefore the baby that is produced is normal, but, is also het for amel.
Similarly, if you put an amel mother to an amel father, you take one trait from each, and as the two match in the baby, you get an amel baby.
This works for all traits, however, the normal never goes away, so for example, if you put a Amel to an anery, you are taking one trait from each, but, because each one of those is different, the baby looks normal, however, because its been given one trait from each parent, its het for amel AND anery.
My wording is not right, you dont take one trait, you cant, i termed it like that to try and make it easier to understand.
If you want your snake to produce visual babies, then you HAVE to pair it with another snake that carries the SAME genes, if its different then you will only get normals.
But, you can pair your snake with something different, and the babies will be 100% het for both the parents visual traits, and a percentage het for any of the parents het.
What is important though, is the the % of the hets is % CHANCE per egg, not % of the clutch.
Its worth knowing which traits do what, you can have colour traits, pattern traits, colour AND pattern, and even scaleless.
Dont expect to be able to understand it really easily, its hard work, i dont get most of it, its a strange concept!! |
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